Re: Lanbril & the thieves guild from mickey galeotti on 2000-07-31 (Glorantha Digest Vol 07)

From: mickey galeotti <mickey_at_galeotti.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:22:20 +0100

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(from Mark G, not Mickey, actually - just not posting this through my = own email account!)

Loren Miller wrote:

"Do the Sicilian Cosa Nostra worship a god of thievery? Do the Japanese = Yakuza? Do the Russian Mafia? No. Then why would any secret society = worship a god that makes their secret so apparent?"

OK, they don't worship a god of thievery as such but.

(a) there is a very distinct mystic tradition, even if most people pay = it only lip-service, in most long-lasting organised crime cultures: = oaths of loyalty, propitiating saints or spirits, etc. Even the = traditionalists within the Russian mafiya have a complex iconography of = tattoos based around both Christian and pagan symbolism. In part, this = is because common myths help create unity and loyalty, but it does mean = that there is certainly a basis on which such worship could be based.

(b) then add in the fact that this is Glorantha, full of spirits happy = both to grant their worshippers magic and actively proselytise. The = Mafia Godfather or Yakuza Oyabun may not worship a thief deity, but if = one was present and clearly able to provide all sorts of useful magic, I = could see them tempted.

(c) there is an interesting and undefined balance between cults emerging = because societies require them and because deities exist and therefore = foster them. So a crass and simple answer would be 'Lanbril exists = because he exists.' But beyond this, remember that this is a world in = which, with Selven Hara, the Lunars even have a deity of travel agents = and tour guides! Is a thief god really that much more improbable?

"It would make much more sense if the secret societies would emphasize = the thieving and secretive aspects of the dominant god of their = culture."

Isn't this an argument for cultural monotheism? The warriors would just = join subcults bringing out the more martial aspects of the main deity, = etc. The only difference is in cultures where the main deity is = secretive, thieving, etc. However, even nasty ruling deities tend = towards a commitment to the maintenance of a set of laws (even if = unpleasant ones - in their own terms Stalinism and Nazism often worked = strictly legalistically), and value order over disorder, central power = over free enterprise.

"Dara Happan thieves circles would be centered around a patriarchal = figure, an elder thief whose decrees are obeyed instantly. They would = use shargashites and other unsavory hirelings, buserite assistance, but = would be controlled by the chief and his council who are worshippers of = Yelm in his Basko mask. Their only loyalty is to their own blood."

One of the problems here is that drawing so heavily on such a variety of = faiths immediately creates problems with loyalties. Where do the = *ultimate* loyalties of those buserians, shargashites, etc lie? With = kin, with the criminal ring, or with their deity? It is no coincidence = that most of the long-lived RW criminal societies (especially Mafia, = Yakuza and Triads) include in their - let's call it initiation - to full = membership (eg, becoming a Mafia 'made man') include a ceremonial = forswearing of existing kin, etc ties, with all devotion going to the = society. Indeed, to me this is reminiscent of Humakti severing their kin = ties. Of course, this is rarely a complete break (though 'family' is = often a metaphorical rather than exact term when talking about OC), but = it does emphasise the problems which could emerge in such = multi-denominational gangs.

Of course, there will be criminals from every faith, but maybe their = place will not - generally - be within OC. They may be freelancers, or = just ordinary criminals.

"Orlanthi thieves rings would be led by an Orlanthi devotee who worships = Orlanth's thieving aspects. There might be a Eurmali or two, and several = Humakti and Uroxi warriors serving the purpose of the organization, and = the only loyalty of the ring is to the bloodline of the leaders."

So would those Humakti really be kept within OC by kin links? Would = Humakt be happy with this arrangement, or is he just a handy arsenal of = death magics? And just what are 'Orlanth's thieving aspects'? He stole = from rivals, but does not seem to advocate secret theft within Orlanthi = society? Cattle raiding, after all, is not regarded as true theft. Look = at Ian Thomson's Orlanth the Thief subcult on the Issaries website and = you will see a finely-judged approach, which is directed not at fleecing = fellow Orlanthi but at striking back against cult enemies and invaders. = Is an Orlanthi who is made outlaw (for good reason) still properly = Orlanthi? What would Orlanth think?

"Carmanian thieving houses."

Carmania is one of my blind(ish) spots - not knowing as much about the = culture as I'd like, I'll pass on this point, although I'd imagine the = general points I've made would hold good.

"Pavisite thieves would be led by someone with weird, outlandish powers = (someone much like Pavis) and would consist of assorted nomads, = heortling exiles, uz, aldryami, and other oddballs. Hmmm, they are much = like adventurer bands. Who'd a thunk it?"

Here I can agree with you to a great degree, given just how unusual a = cultural, mythic and even racial mixing pot Pavis is. But I think that = there could *also* be Lanbrili - whose magics would give them a distinct = competitive advantage. And it is certainly true that the exact form of = OC and thief cults will depend on the environment, whether busy seaport = (lots of scope for smuggling, etc, and probably links with gangs in = trading partner cities) or a harshly-regulated civilised city (where the = OC probably needs to be working with either the authorities or at least = corrupted members thereof). This is what I was getting at with my = 'floating third affinity in my version of Lanbril on the Issaries = website (though watch this space for alternative versions from Ian and = Steve Martin).

Having splurged out a thousand words or so of rebuttal, I do just want = to end by saying that I'm really pleased that these issues are being = raised on the Digest. Let the philologists and anthropologists have = their say...but let's talk some crime, too! On balance, I think you make = a great deal of sense in your own terms - but don't fully consider the = impact Glorantha's magic has on OC. In Glorantha, unlike the real world, = cult affiliation is one of the key distinctions within society, and = tends to link closely with political/social/economic role. Warriors have = warrior gods; scholars scholar gods; so "why Lanbril?" - why not?

All the best,

Mark

Mark Galeotti (hia15_at_his.keele.ac.uk)

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(from Mark G, not Mickey, actually – just not =
posting this=20
through my own email account!)

Loren Miller wrote:

"Do the Sicilian Cosa Nostra worship a god of =
thievery? Do the=20
Japanese Yakuza? Do the Russian Mafia? No. Then why would any secret = society=20
worship a god that makes their secret so apparent?"

OK, they don’t worship a god of thievery as =

such but&#8230;</P>


(a) there is a very distinct mystic tradition, even =
if most=20
people pay it only lip-service, in most long-lasting organised crime = cultures:=20
oaths of loyalty, propitiating saints or spirits, etc. Even the = traditionalists=20
within the Russian mafiya have a complex iconography of tattoos based = around=20
both Christian and pagan symbolism. In part, this is because common = myths help=20
create unity and loyalty, but it does mean that there is certainly a = basis on=20
which such worship could be based.

(b) then add in the fact that this is Glorantha, full =
of=20
spirits happy both to grant their worshippers magic and actively = proselytise.=20
The Mafia Godfather or Yakuza Oyabun may not worship a thief deity, but = if one=20
was present and clearly able to provide all sorts of useful magic, I = could see=20
them tempted.

(c) there is an interesting and undefined balance =
between cults=20
emerging because societies require them and because deities exist and = therefore=20
foster them. So a crass and simple answer would be ‘Lanbril exists = because he=20
exists.’ But beyond this, remember that this is a world in which, = with Selven=20
Hara, the Lunars even have a deity of travel agents and tour guides! Is = a thief=20
god really that much more improbable?

"It would make much more sense if the secret =
societies would=20
emphasize the thieving and secretive aspects of the dominant god of = their=20
culture."

Isn’t this an argument for cultural monotheism? =
The warriors=20
would just join subcults bringing out the more martial aspects of the = main=20
deity, etc. The only difference is in cultures where the main deity is=20 secretive, thieving, etc. However, even nasty ruling deities tend = towards a=20
commitment to the maintenance of a set of laws (even if unpleasant ones = – in=20
their own terms Stalinism and Nazism often worked strictly = legalistically), and=20
value order over disorder, central power over free enterprise.

"Dara Happan thieves circles would be centered around =
a=20
patriarchal figure, an elder thief whose decrees are obeyed instantly. = They=20
would use shargashites and other unsavory hirelings, buserite = assistance, but=20
would be controlled by the chief and his council who are worshippers of = Yelm in=20
his Basko mask. Their only loyalty is to their own blood."

One of the problems here is that drawing so heavily =
on such a=20
variety of faiths immediately creates problems with loyalties. Where do = the=20
*ultimate* loyalties of those buserians, shargashites, etc lie? With = kin, with=20
the criminal ring, or with their deity? It is no coincidence that most = of the=20
long-lived RW criminal societies (especially Mafia, Yakuza and Triads) = include=20
in their – let’s call it initiation – to full = membership (eg, becoming a Mafia=20
‘made man’) include a ceremonial forswearing of existing = kin, etc ties, with all=20
devotion going to the society. Indeed, to me this is reminiscent of = Humakti=20
severing their kin ties. Of course, this is rarely a complete break = (though=20
‘family’ is often a metaphorical rather than exact term when = talking about OC),=20
but it does emphasise the problems which could emerge in such=20 multi-denominational gangs.

Of course, there will be criminals from every faith, =
but maybe=20
their place will not – generally – be within OC. They may be = freelancers, or=20
just ordinary criminals.

"Orlanthi thieves rings would be led by an Orlanthi =
devotee who=20
worships Orlanth's thieving aspects. There might be a Eurmali or two, = and=20
several Humakti and Uroxi warriors serving the purpose of the = organization, and=20
the only loyalty of the ring is to the bloodline of the leaders."

So would those Humakti really be kept within OC by =
kin links?=20
Would Humakt be happy with this arrangement, or is he just a handy = arsenal of=20
death magics? And just what are ‘Orlanth’s thieving = aspects’? He stole from=20
rivals, but does not seem to advocate secret theft within Orlanthi = society?=20
Cattle raiding, after all, is not regarded as true theft. Look at Ian = Thomson’s=20
Orlanth the Thief subcult on the Issaries website and you will see a=20 finely-judged approach, which is directed not at fleecing fellow = Orlanthi but at=20
striking back against cult enemies and invaders. Is an Orlanthi who is = made=20
outlaw (for good reason) still properly Orlanthi? What would Orlanth = think?

"Carmanian thieving houses…"

Carmania is one of my blind(ish) spots – not =
knowing as much=20
about the culture as I’d like, I’ll pass on this point, = although I’d imagine the=20
general points I’ve made would hold good.

"Pavisite thieves would be led by someone with weird, =

outlandish powers (someone much like Pavis) and would consist of = assorted=20
nomads, heortling exiles, uz, aldryami, and other oddballs. Hmmm, they = are much=20
like adventurer bands. Who'd a thunk it?"

Here I can agree with you to a great degree, given =
just how=20
unusual a cultural, mythic and even racial mixing pot Pavis is. But I = think that=20
there could *also* be Lanbrili – whose magics would give them a = distinct=20
competitive advantage. And it is certainly true that the exact form of = OC and=20
thief cults will depend on the environment, whether busy seaport (lots = of scope=20
for smuggling, etc, and probably links with gangs in trading partner = cities) or=20
a harshly-regulated civilised city (where the OC probably needs to be = working=20
with either the authorities or at least corrupted members thereof). This = is what=20
I was getting at with my ‘floating third affinity in my version of = Lanbril on=20
the Issaries website (though watch this space for alternative versions = from Ian=20
and Steve Martin).

Having splurged out a thousand words or so of =
rebuttal, I do=20
just want to end by saying that I’m really pleased that these = issues are being=20
raised on the Digest. Let the philologists and anthropologists have = their=20
say...but let’s talk some crime, too! On balance, I think you make = a great deal=20
of sense in your own terms – but don’t fully consider the = impact Glorantha’s=20
magic has on OC. In Glorantha, unlike the real world, cult affiliation = is one of=20
the key distinctions within society, and tends to link closely with=20 political/social/economic role. Warriors have warrior gods; scholars = scholar=20
gods; so "why Lanbril?" – why not?

All the best,

Mark

Mark Galeotti (hia15_at_his.keele.ac.uk)
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