That's definitely a valid 'take' or chaos, I think, though neither a complete (or completely accurate) one, and not precisely a Gloranthan one either. Though it's not unlike elements of 'Sedenyic Philosophy' (She is the Turner, after all), and in that zone of ambiguity about things like Illumination (seductive corruption by chaos, or revelation of a cosmic truth that you may not have been fully prepared to handle?).
> I can even accept the idea (after some squirming) that there can be
> multiple gods for the same thing. In some cases, this is obvious. I don't
> think anyone has a problem with different gods of basketry in Teshnos and
> Peloria. The bigger and more universal gods are more troublesome. (Is
> Humakt Death everywhere? Does Yelm shine in Pamaltela? If Pamalt and
> Orlanth played checkers, who would win?) They way to deal with this is to
> assume there is some unreachable reality behind the myths.
Right. As Nils said, that's what the mystics would say, so it _must_ be right! ("Sign up for our simple, no-money-back-guarantee, 10 lifetimes or less (or so) Reaching the Unreachable Programme!")
> The question, then, is not "Which is the sun, Yelm or Elmal" but
> "Which is the better sun?"
Well, that depends if you mean 'better' in the sense of, "is the loyal, steadfast thane", or in the sense of "Whee, we get Sunspear!"
> The various magic types (Theism, Animism, etc.) are so
> different in their perceptions and understandings that, having accepted
> this division, the rest seems like small potatoes.
Indeed. Though how accurate this particular division is, is open to question; how profound it is really is not.
> I'm not entirely happy
> with this (Yelm wan't the Emperor before the 1st Council, but he was
> afterward?)
In the Dawn Age, they realized he'd been the Emperor all along, rather. Though they reserved the right to subsequently decide he hadn't been after all, seemingly. ;-)
> However, I do have trouble with gods' interpretations of
> themselves. I can imagine that Elmal would claim to be the sun, if asked. I
> can also imagine that Elmal could be "convinced" that he was really the
> sun's charioteer or some similar thing to allow Yelm and Elmal worship to
> coexist. However, I find it hard to believe that one worshipper can call
> Elmal and get "I am the One True Sun" while another worshipper gets "There
> are many suns."
Not sustainably, at least. It's this sort of cra-- err, deep religious insight, sorry! -- that caused the whole Yelmalio schism, after all. A Gloranthan would explain this in assorted different ways; Yelmalio and Elmal are different gods, after all, but those worship had been confused and conflated; they're the same god, but You Heretics Over There *accusatory pointing* Worship Him All Wrong, and delude yourselves when you think you hear him speak to you, so befuddled are you by the lies of the Orlanthi/the Dara Happans; they're both Masks of a Higher Power (which I shall now reveal to you, quoth the charioteer, increasing your Illumination %age threefold...), etc, etc.
If your god consistently gives inconsistent answers (as it were) you clearly have to deal with this in some fashion. Deciding he's the god of inconsistency, schisming, and pogroming all the miserable liars who report the 'wrong' answer would all be viable options, to a greater or lesser extent.
> This has been a problem for me since a game I ran back in
> (um, Andrew help me here) 1981. We had a bunch of Humakti who ahd become
> entangled in a complex web of deceit and chaos-worshippers. They had tried
> their level best to behave with strict honor, had observed their oaths and
> rules, etc. but were accused of all sorts of things by the temple
> hierarchy. I was all set for some good inter-cult feuding when a smart
> player said "well, let's use Divination." It stopped me cold. 20 years
> later, I could probably weasle my way out of it (or avoid the situation in
> the first place), but it would still be weasling.
Humakt is perhaps not the best of all possible choices for a god to get too weasly with, I admit... It'd depend what sort of divination they went for. Humakt would certainly be able to reveal who had been sticking to their cult vows, upholding their word, and behaving 'honourably' (in that ever-so-fun Humakti sense of the word), and I'd think would do so fairly clearly and unambiguously (depending on your tastes for how 'oracular' divinations tend towards in the first place). If you ask Humakti about something He has little or no 'interest in', or magic and myths relating to, you'll get no answer, or a pointedly obtuse one. (Greg_at_Convulsion: "Humakt, will my child be born a boy or a girl?" "Someday they will die.")
> Anyway, that's what I've got so far. I'm sorry I started this, but
> my thinking is a little clearer on the issue, so perhaps it was good, at
> least for me.
I'm sorry you're sorry you started it <g>, and if thinkiing was clarified thereby, well, that is what we're all here for, I think!
Cheers,
Alex.
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #41
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