From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 21:00:22 +1300

David Cake:

>Me>This doesn't sound right. There's no forces that war within
> >the Zzaburite, any such threat is represented by the nature or
> >the external cosmos. The Zzaburite masters this by imposing
> >order upon it, not by reconciling opposites within himself
> >(which I feel is more appropriate for Lunars than for Malkioni).

>Zzaburites are not robots - there have desires, and biases,
>and so on. They wish to overcome these and become creatures of
>pure will.

Nevertheless their religion is one predicated upon reason and the reconciliation of opposites is one not found in the traditional God Learner scheme as we have it.

Desires and biases do not necessarily have to be overcome in order to think logically and the end result of Zzaburi study is not necessarily becoming a creature of pure will anymore than a Lunar seeks to become pure seventh self.

>I was, as you are probably aware, thinking of alchemy, so the
>reconciliation of opposites concept came from there. Which means to
>me it makes sense for the closest analogue we have, introducing a new
>element, its true, but one arising from a very similar tradition.

But as I said before the "new element" sounds still un-Zzaburite. I'd rather have it as a derivative tradition rather than the foundation of the basic sorcerous tradition.

>I don't think a path that is concerned only with the nature
>of the external cosmos, not the self, can really be regarded as

It's not a mystical path as such. Rather it seeks transcendent truths through intellectual methods.

> >I have big qualms about this. Zzaburism is supposed to be all
> >about the use of one's logical faculties whereas stating that
> >it's similar (even superficially) to Kaballah or the Golden Dawn
> >(both of which are anything but rational) undermines this
> >philosophical basis.

>You perceive them as being irrational, perhaps, but many of
>their practitioners would regard them as very rational.

Kaballah may appear rational but its practice does not involve rigorous application of rational thought which the Zzaburites are meant at least meant to be doing. And the Golden Dawn is even worse.

>And we are talking about sorcerers, not scientists.

And the Western Zzaburite tradition is more akin to Greek Philosophy than the ascetic ideas of Kaballah.

> >>Kaballah sees the forces of the cosmos as being reflected
> >>within the microcosm of the human, not the other way around.

> >Which makes little difference either way as the Cosmos is still
> >conceived in essentially human terms.

>Zzaburites are sorcerers, not astrophysicists. They perceive
>the cosmos as being made up of essentially human terms (ie they
>perceive the universe in terms of a bunch of concepts like those
>represented by the runes), whether they recognise it or not.

That still doesn't eliminate the fact that Kaballah still conceives God as having similar attributes to humans, while the Zzaburites are known not to do this. Therefore it's still inappropriate.

>The Kabbalistic sephiroth might not divide the
>universe into the same concepts - but its a better fit, IMO, than
>systems that do not divide the universe up similarly at all.

We already have the Malkioni (impersonal) conception of the Cosmos (the five actions as the forms, elements and powers explore themselves). So why do the need for the sephiroth?

>I think my essential problems with your conception of
>Zzaburism, Peter, are two - it doesn't feel all that sorcerous, as it
>is detached from their sorcerous view of the world,

It depends on what you mean by sorcerous. Sorcerers at the basic Zzaburite level aren't Ars Magica sorcerers. That Ars Magica types (or something similar to them) can exist in Glorantha but not every western sorcerer will look like them.

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