> >What I am pointing out that [Kaballah's] practice (Soul Perfection,
> >Mystical States) does not involve _rational thought_ which is what
> >the Zzaburi do.
>I don't know; it seems to me that the Zzaburi would dismiss the soul
>entirely, conflating it with the mind. Purifying and Perfecting the Mind
>might hold the same place for them as Perfection of the Soul does for
>mystics (and Mystics).
If the Zzaburi are using Kaballah techniques to purify the mind, then the description of the Zzaburi as being rationalist enquirers into the nature of the Cosmos becomes pretty hard to sustain. Looking at the descriptions of the Kaballah practices (and even the Golden Dawn), I find it hard to reconcile this with the image of Zzabur.
>After all, the "aha!" of intellectual discovery is
>not that different from the "aha!" of mystical revelation.
But we are talking about the look and feel of the route, not the destination.
>That's because the Busarian's rigor is Theistic (specifically Dara
>Happan) and moral, while the Zzaburi (at least) pursue a Sorcerorous
>and mental rigor. I assume the practice of, say a Sheshnegi Wizard
>would combine the two moral somewhat; not as mental as the Zzaburi
>but less moral than the Busarian (much closer to the Zzaburi, though).
The veneration of God is not a combination of theism and sorcery but an authentic method of interacting with the sorcery-plane. The venerators share their personal energy with God or submit to his Will (the former is Greg's version, the latter is mine).
>OK, fair enough. I just want to make sure the ZZaburi are sorcerors,
>not mad scientists (to risk reigniting a recent argument).
I don't understand the need to distinguish sorcery from mad science.
> >While the Tabourites did have a shortage of knights
> >they were far from being "extremely poorly equipped". Each
> >wagon was supposed to have two handgunners, six crossbowmen, two
> >flail-carriers, four halberdiers, two shield carriers, and two
> >well-armed drivers. Generals have swapped sides for less...
>These wagons made a big splash, but I'm unsure how typical of the
>Taborite forces they were.
If they didn't use the wagons, they would have been cut to pieces by the enemy knights on the battlefield as essentially happened to the army of Peter the Hermit during the First Crusade. I really have to bow out of this part of the debate for I find your terminology to be a bit too humpty-dumptyish (Muenster as a long term success for example or characterizing the Hussites as essentially a revolution of religious proleriatat while ignoring its ethnic appeal) to be worth inflicting on the digest.
> >But the longing in Safelster _is_ for the Autarchy which Arkat
> >founded. There's a discussion about this in the Glorantha: Intro
> >p54-57. The world of losers movement (the Gloranthan Flagellants)
> >even worships Arkat the Martyr (Ibid p60).
>Can't it be for both?
I don't see why Safelstran Farmers have to look back to the Land of Logic as well as Arkat's Empire. Arkat is fairly close to Jesus Christ in the Safelstran mythos and his Empire is fairly remote in time to be mythicized. What other reason is there apart from making the RW parallels somewhat more obvious than usual?
>thereshould be currents within Rokarianism,
Already exists with the split between Nolos and Tanisor over Saint Onokros. In addition, there's the Whyte Wyzards, the details of which can be found in ToTRM#13.
>for example, and I can easily imagine some Perfecti being more like
>Cathars, some more like the Brethern of the Free Spirit, and some
>like the Sufis.
I fail to see why the Perfecti should be split up this way. If you want Sufi and Free Spirit, then it would be best to make up another brotherhood altogether (I've already mentioned Ebbeshal for the Free Spirit).
>Similarly, I'd like to see the
>World of Losers be as much a set of ideas as a cult; maybe some Arkat
>worship, maybe some Flagellants, maybe a justification for Farmer
>rebellion, and maybe some elements of it make their way into orthodox
>sects;
Why do these things have to be disassociated from each other? I don't like the concept of the World of Losers being a vague grouping of cultists, some of whom are in it for Arkat worship while others are in it for explicit Farmer rebellion or Flagellation (as if Arkat the Martyr could be venerated without it) and so forth.
It makes more sense to me for the World of Losers to be full of people from all parts of Safelstran society attempting to become Arkati through the Martyr's road rather than make explicit the reasons why it appeals to them.
>while Hrestol's "passion" is not (as I understand it) venerated in
>the West, I can image that certain groups of Losers and Hrestoli give it
>greater importance.
Hrestol does not have a passion, but rather a road to martyrdom that is open to even the King of Loskalm. The real passion is Malkion's Sacrifice and this is a major part of Rokarism.
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