> If they didn't use the wagons, they would have been cut to pieces
> by the enemy knights on the battlefield as essentially happened to
> the army of Peter the Hermit during the First Crusade. I really
> have to bow out of this part of the debate for I find your
> terminology to be a bit too humpty-dumptyish (Muenster as a long
> term success for example or characterizing the Hussites as
> essentially a revolution of religious proleriatat while ignoring
> its ethnic appeal) to be worth inflicting on the digest.
Well, as I said; I don't think we're arguing about the same thing at all ( e.g. the aims of the Taborites as separate from the aims of Zizka). But, I agree, I don't think this is going anywhere interesting. And, yes, the Taborites (and the Utraquists more so) had an ethnic componant, and so should most of the religions of Ralios (which they seem to do, I'm gald to say)
> I don't see why Safelstran Farmers have to look back to the Land
> of Logic as well as Arkat's Empire. Arkat is fairly close to Jesus
> Christ in the Safelstran mythos and his Empire is fairly remote
> in time to be mythicized. What other reason is there apart from
> making the RW parallels somewhat more obvious than usual?
They don't have to, although it's odd that the two wouldn't get conflated. Like the way that the Arthur stories get all the Christian symbolism tacked on to them (not to mention the Illiad). Remember, this is a non-literate society (especially the Farmers). They are going to tell stories, and those stories are going to merge together.
> I fail to see why the Perfecti should be split up this way. If
> you want Sufi and Free Spirit, then it would be best to make up
> another brotherhood altogether (I've already mentioned Ebbeshal
> for the Free Spirit).
Well, the Perfecti (despite their name) aren't like the Cathars (or so you said earlier). Other RW models that match are the Free Spirit and the Sufi. If the Perfecti are like either one of these (and, if they aren't, do they match with anyone?), there are going to be considerable doctrinal differences between Perfecti. Why should they be monolithic when they are heretical individual truth-seekers? (Which doesn't quite fit the Ebbeshalians, but they certainly could be modeled on aspects of the Free Spirit (and, for that matter, be related to the Perfecti in some distant way).
> >Similarly, I'd like to see the
> >World of Losers be as much a set of ideas as a cult; maybe some Arkat
> >worship, maybe some Flagellants, maybe a justification for Farmer
> >rebellion, and maybe some elements of it make their way into orthodox
> >sects;
>
> Why do these things have to be disassociated from each other? I
> don't like the concept of the World of Losers being a vague
> grouping of cultists, some of whom are in it for Arkat worship
> while others are in it for explicit Farmer rebellion or Flagellation
> (as if Arkat the Martyr could be venerated without it) and so forth.
But, in the Middle Ages, that's exactly what happened; while the Ranters and the Flagellants and the Taborites and the Brethern of the Free Spirit all had differences in philosophy, they also shared a central set of concerns that continued to repeat for 400+ years; different flesh, same bones. As you've pointed out, it would be nice if Gloranthan religion acted like RW religion, that the differences between sects mattered beyond what spells you get. Besides, if not the World of Losers, what would you suggest for desperate Farmers?
> >while Hrestol's "passion" is not (as I understand it) venerated in
> >the West, I can image that certain groups of Losers and Hrestoli give it
> >greater importance.
>
> Hrestol does not have a passion, but rather a road to martyrdom that
> is open to even the King of Loskalm. The real passion is Malkion's
> Sacrifice and this is a major part of Rokarism.
Hmmm. Hrestol was tried, found quilty, tortured, and executed
proving in the process his point. And, more or less, repeating what
happened to Malkion (a self-immolating Heroquest, I suppose). I don't know
how this can't be a passion.
I'm not saying that Western religion treats Hrestol's death in the same way
that Christians treat Christ's, but I can't imagine that it isn't seen as
an important event (especially as Hrestol is so much cudlier than Malkion).
Peter Larsen
Office Assistant
Geology Library
University of Texas at Austin
Austin, Texas, USA
email: plarsen_at_gslis.utexas.edu
phone: (512) 495-4680
fax: (512) 495-4102
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