Hero Husbandry

From: Donald R. Oddy <donald_at_grove.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 22:34:21 GMT


>From: darvall <madamx_at_pop.mikka.net.au>
>
>Donald
>>
>>Not true, the nomads of Prax and Pent will have at least as high a
>>proportion of fighting heros as the Orlanthi.
>
>True. I forgot them & the Char Un (don't ask how cause I don't know.)<blushes>
>
>>Nor are you comparing like with like, the proportion of fighting heroes in
>>>a Lunar army unit
>
>Which unit would this be? A Char Un unit is a tribe. Peltasts are more
>individual than Hoplites. See below.

Regular Lunar army, not Char Un or Antelope Lancers who are nomads who have hired out under tribal chiefs. I would also exclude local militias which are often poorly trained and lack experience.

>>will be far higher than any Orlanthi tribe. That's because Pelorean
>>>culture is more specialised with full time soldiers, scholars, magicans
>>>and even tax collectors.
>
>The specialist *soldier*, as opposed to Tarnils type officer, is unlikely
>to fit even our broad definition of hero. The training emphasises
>comformity & group action not the circumstances likely to push up a hero.
>Note that RW decorations are for "valour beyond the point of duty" & what
>makes them special is their rarity. Even their magic is tailored to group
>effects. Granted Peltasts do vary from this as do the Char Un (Who are'nt
>specialist soldiers so much as specialist Char Un, another *warrior*
>culture) but the Phalanxes have this at their core.
>I guess what I'm saying is that Warrior heros are more likely to come from
>'Warrior' cultures than from the more specialised 'Soldier or Farmer'
>cultures. Soldiers are not the same as warriors. A soldier may also be a
>warrior but not neccessarily.

Why should a soldier not be a hero? the file leader who holds the phalanx together when all the officers are slain and the enemy has decimated the ranks with horrible magics is just as much a hero as the Humakti last stand (both most likely recognised after death).

>Additionally a culture in which everyone is exposed to warfare as part of
>daily life is more likely to produce warrior heros than even a unit of
>soldiers recruited from a populace whose main combative experience is
>rioting & not much of that. By initiation the average O/i has seen more
>Warfare than the average Pelorian Peasant recruit, ie 14 years as opposed
>to none.

So heortling babes in arms fight? More likely three or four years of scaring off predators and eight or nine years of weapon training at not more than a day a week. Just about competant to go on a raid without sticking his spear in his leader's backside. Remember the frequent raiding of the Orlanthi isn't a daily or even weekly activity - - they'd never have time to farm if it was. The Pelorian peasant by comparison gets several weeks basic training and then practices every day except when on campaign. He starts from a lower base than the Orlanthi but rapidly surpasses him. Of course the styles of fighting are so different that either can best the other in different circumstances.

>>I can'timagine every stead of half a dozen families having a hero.
>
>Why not? The culture encourages it. The circumstances encourage it. The
>Hero Wars are called that for the land is aflicted with not one but many
>heros. O.K. a bit extreme, but there should be a number in every clan.

That's what I mean, several in a clan of several hundred people. That means most steads will not have a hero, maybe one in four or one in three assuming they don't tend to concentrate around the clan chief's stead. That's why the handful of farmers from one stead gathering on a hill aren't worth the effort of supressing.

>>The fact that almost every Orlanthi is ready to brawl at the drop of
>>a cow turd doesn't mean that they are going to be all that good at
>>fighting.
>
>You don't get to west Queensland pubs a lot do you? Let me assure you them
>what fights the mostest is likely to be best at it. Small communities in
>which the main entertainment is drinking & bluing throw up a
>disproportionate amount of good fighters. Recalling that the O/i pub blue
>is not limmitted to fists & bar furniture & that insults are often answered
>by mortal combat (not the computer game either) I would tend to say that
>the regular brawling (a thing unlikely to be tolerated in a diciplined
>army) either improves the locals' skill at fighting or kills off those who
>can't.

Theres a difference between good at brawling and good at fighting. When the police are called to your Queensland brawls how long does it take for them to break them up? Round here a reasonable number of police will scatter two or three times their number of brawlers.

>KoS p233 "However, most of those will be Fyrdmen.They carry weapons & know
>how to run round in the hills & woods, but not how to fight."
>Thirteen years after this report was composed 1300 Lunar troops were
>massacred at the beginning of Starbrow's revolt (Wyrm's Footprints). Now
>either the report was in error about the fighting abilities of the Fyrd or
>about the numbers of the Colymar, or most likely both.

Isn't that the battle where a large chunk of the Lunar army were eaten by a dragon? Of course not all Lunar troops are regulars - e.g. the Tarsh militia.

>>10 minor heros, 90 decent warriors and 900 fyrd couldn't stand against
>>>even 500 regular soldiers.
>
>I would not be putting money on that. The invasion took slightly more than
>500 regs, notably the 1300 victims of *Colymar* agression & then some.

Equally a population of 18,000 would provide a lot more than 1,000 troops, probably 4-5,000. That's just one tribe and in any case occupation requires more troops than conquest.

>Yep. We're talking about 1) Gunder's support base, both magical & mundane.
>2)The source of the next Gunder & the one after that. The problem with
>Guerrilla wars is that provided the support base remains they can drag on
>forever. 3) Those most likely to be stirred by Gunder. 4)Places that are
>Gunder's temples, regardless of what the urban mob thinks.
>Cut all this from under him & eventually he will either capitulate, flee
>the region, or be killed or captured. Topping him personally just gives the
>rebels another martyr whose boots many will strive to fill. The breaking up
>of tribes & outlawring (ie cutting off from family) of individuals is Lunar
>policy for a reason.

That's the mistake many governments make when fighting guerillas. Sure the fighting martyrs end up in the songs and tales and inspire the hotheads of the next generation but they don't keep the populace behind the guerillas. That happens when government troops attack and kill people who are suspected of supporting rather than actively involved in the insurrection. And since the government can't accurately determine who is who that happens as soon as they try and attack the support base.

>>I don't think of weaponthanes as the chief's bully boys. I look at them as
>>>combat specialists who are attached to a wealthy thane's household.
>
>Why are they there? Because the Thane needs persons who can perpetrate
>violence on others. Specialist or no "bully boy" depends on how the boss
>uses you. You don't get the attachment (with perks) for free.

Only if that is their primary purpose in Orlanthi society, my argument is that their primary purpose is to provide weapons training and a limited amount of group fighting knowledge to the average farmer. This gives them a role which is valuable to the clan as a whole in the same way as specialist healers even though every farmer will know how to bind up a wound.

>>Even if they do the test will be modified so that there is a much lower
>>mortality rate.
>
>Why? This is part of the proof of adulthood. If they don't cut it you don't
>want them. Surival of the tribe is not enhanced by members who are notably
>deficient in the basic skills of that society unless they have a
>significantly valuable specialty, most likely gained after basic initiation
>& at the expense of renouncing those skills, not being deficient in the
>first place.

Because you don't spend 10 - 15 years raising children and then kill off one in seven because they don't meet a high standard. You set a standard of basic competence which has some risk (usually of injury or humiliation rather than death) and find other tasks for those who fail.

>>Certainly it has nothing to do with the cult of Ernalda which most females
>>are initiated in.
>
>Unfortunately the only Ernalda initiation I can find has yet to be
>canonised (Has this changed Jane?) While I use it myself I can't argue from
>it. It does note, however, that all Ernalda initiates learn 2 handed spear
>as the shield is too heavy.
>
><snip>
>>One of Greg's objectives with Hero Wars is that lone Heroes can't
>>defeat warbands[1].
>
>Morden Defends the Camp.
>
>>They rely on followers who make up their own warband
>
>Morden is part of his Chief's warband, i.e. a follower, in as much as an
>O/i is such a thing.

In Hero Wars terms someone can be both a Hero and a follower. Morden in this case is the Hero and the rest of the clan are acting as his followers in providing magical support.

>>so while an Hero can appear from anywhere they are goingto need the
>>>training and support of weaponthanes.
>
>Why? They've spent their lives from walking playing with weapons, using
>weapons, training with weapons. Warfare is part of daily life. There are
>cattle raids on a regular basis, predators on the flocks, & hunting.
>Everybody fights & everyone Farms. (O/i all)
>I don't argue that they'll need their support, only the training. They
>should have that already precisely because of the mechanism which
>discourages the concentration of the majority of the best fighters. A
>mechanism on which we seem to agree.

I think we are meaning different things by training, most Orlanthi training will be weapon handling with a bit of basic formation work. That will start as children but continue into adult life with regular weapon practice. While it is possible to learn entirely by experience, it is a lot faster and safer to be taught with experience re-inforcing the lessons. A fighting hero needs to follow that route even if he has the natural ability which makes it easy.

>>Just as they will need the help of Lawspeakers, Healers, etc.
>
>Support not training & then for a very specialist role. The warrior is not
>a specialist role in O/i society, there are those who specialise in it but
>they do not have the monopoly on violence that 'civilised' armies do. The
>only non-warriors are dedicated healers & small children.

You could say the same about healing, everyone knows how to bind minor wounds, treat routine illnesses and a bit of healing magic. The specialist healers teach those skills and are called for the more difficult problems.

>>[1] At least that's what I understood him to mean, and it's borne
>>out by the combat system.
>>
>Really? Here I was thinking that the write up stating that Heros were to be
>empowered to wade through hordes of faceless spear carriers meant it.
>Particularly with the multibump mechanism. (digests passim)

Work through an extended contest with a hero against 50 trollkin as multiple opponents - the hero will be swamped. Admitedly it's a bit up to the narrator as alternative methods produce different results but the general line seems to be that if a hero is going into a contest with lots of opponents he should have a bunch of people to back him up.

End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #144


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