So, I'll comment some more here.
On Wednesday, January 24, 2001, at 12:11 AM, Andrew Barton wrote:
> I maintain that if spearmen are useless in SCA battles,
Hold on--I never said that. Spears are really deadly in the right SCA situation. I love fighting spear and do it often. However, I did say that spear and shield is a weapon choice that almost no one takes . At the past Pennsic War, which is the largest SCA massed combat in the Americas, we had nearly 4000 fighters. Of those 4000, there were perhaps 16 spear and shield, all in one unit, trying to do the Sparta thing.
There's a great picture of what happens when sword and shield rush a spearman at
http://www.geocities.com/pennsicwar/images/war1.jpg The guy in yellow and black is about to get smeared.
> that to me is proof
> that those SCA battles have some crucial difference from historical
> fighting. It seems quite useful to try to work out what that is - because
> it helps us think about what happens in Glorantha battles, which have
> another crucial difference in the presence of magic.
See below. I think that if we're going to continue this discussion, we need to understand what our various experiences are made up of. (I'm fascinated by the accounts of the-guy-I'm-too-lazy-to-find-the-name-of who is in some Viking recreation group that clearly gets quite physical, even using real weapons.
>
> Do large-scale cavalry charges with lowered spears occur on SCA
> battlefields?
This question showed me that I need to actually provide an introduction to SCA combat for the list. Footnotes and all. Skip it if you don't care, but don't ask questions if you haven't read it!
SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism, a medieval educational non-profit corp with regional orgainzations across the US, Europe and most other places where there are US military bases. www.sca.org We base our studies and our combat on the medieval period, with a strong bias toward the high middle ages and the principles of chivalry.
Those principles strongly inform our fighting rules. In the SCA, attacking a helpless opponent is not allowed. That means no attacks from behind, no attacks against someone who is on the ground, no attacking someone who doesn't know you're there. (*1) Wrestling with your opponent is not allowed. We hit each other with our weapons, not our hands. Shield bashing is fine, and I can put my (non-offensive, see below) shield on your body, but I can't shove or hit you with it. I can shove or hit your shield or weapon with my shield or weapon. For safety reasons, we don't intentionally strike the hands or from the knee down, or count blows that land there. The throat, groin and inside of the elbow are not to be considered intentional targets--If you get hit there, the blow might be good, but don't TRY to hit someone in the bits.
Fighting is competitive. I'm REALLY TRYING to hit my opponent, and he or she is REALLY TRYING to hit me. No choreographed moves worked out ahead of time, no discussion between sides about which unit will engage which. We use real armor and fake weapons. Cutting/slashing weapons are made of 1.25+ inch rattan, a material that looks like bamboo but is solid. Its weight and handling characteristics aren't terribly far off from steel. We make swords of all lengths (18" - 72") maces, axes, polearms of various designs up to 7.5 feet, and spears up to 9 feet long. Thrusting tips are padded with foam, heads of hafted weapons are also covered with about 1" of foam in most regions. It is possible to have an offensive shield, but very few people work with them as they require very careful construction to avoid going over one rule for weapons--that they not weigh more than 7 lbs. Also, offensive shields were not common in the period most of us attempt to recreate:12th-16th century Europe.
Our armor is real and it protects. You can't be "killed" or "wounded" from the haft of an axe or a spear's shaft. No quarterstaffs. The head of a weapon has to get you. Nor could a shield smash to the face take you out (though they often hit harder than weapons when the accidentally occur! (*2) For the very studious there's a rather old picture of me in my old armor at http://guardians.atlantia.sca.org/chivalry/bio/corby/corby.htm
Fighting is on the honor system. It is up to the person who has been hit to decide: If that has been a real weapon, and I had been wearing the standard armor we are all supposed to judge against, would I have been wounded (lose an arm or leg) or killed (fall down, fight over)? We don't use horses in actual competitive combat. Too easy for some one to be stepped on, and no fun if you can't drag horsemen off their mounts or hit the horses. Plus, they are really expensive (*3) and not too many people on the east coast have horse farms. They're much more popular in the Texas SCA, though still not common, and still not for competitive combat.
SCA fighters are admittedly much braver than the ordinary ancient or medieval soldier, since they aren't really getting killed. No unit runs away when 1 in 10 of their numbers falls down. (*4) It is easier to get people to charge into certain "death." An open field battle with 4000 combatants takes between 10-30 minutes of actual fighting time to go to the last man. At the end of that, one side has 100% "casualties" and another has from 30% (spectacularly successful) to 90% (very close fight) "casualties." This, of course, is where what we do is most different from the real world, or even Glorantha. Similarly, since the idea is to have a good time, we try not to stage battles where the odds are worse than 5 to 4. But I have seen fights between thousands where the odds were 3 to 2. The "2" even won it, which was credited to good generalship on the parts of the "2s", and no generalship on the parts of the "3s."
Morale is still an issue though. I've seen many units die because they were too tentative and failed to attack a force they could have beaten, if they had only charged. (See the 3 to 2 stuff, above.) In fact, when I train troops, one truism of SCA combat is that it is better to charge than to receive a charge. "You kill people stepping forward, and die stepping backward." I've said it a hundred times.
Missile weapons are under-used. Many fighters (particularly those who design the battle scenarios) think that archers spoil the fun for the regular fighters because they get shot before they actually get to fight. Point taken! Javelins and thrown weapons rarely appear in open field battles. It is very difficult with our armor standards to create a good protective gauntlet that allows you to throw well. And archery is more effective than javelins anyway, so those who want to kill from a distance usually go with a bow.
For some movies of SCA fighting and other activities, check out http://www.pennsic.net/pw29videos.html though I couldn't get them to play on my beta operating system.
Lastly, though I am by nature a modest man, I have to say that I've been doing SCA combat for almost 15 years, and I am Very Very Good at it.(*5) I'm a contender in any regional tournament in 4 different weapons forms, have extensive unit command experience, and make a habit of taking spears away from my opponents in large scale battle. I pluck them right out if their hands as they try to stab me.(*6) I'm recognized as a teacher of fighters and tactics as well.
(*1) That doesn't mean that SCA units don't try to get around behind their opponents. It still works, it just takes a little longer to kill the guys you're behind, because you have to get their attention first. Also, as U.S. West Coasties will probably chime in, killing from behind is allowed in some regions ("Kingdoms") of the SCA. But not on the East Coast.
(*2) That's because shields haven't been designed as weapons. They aren't made of rattan, they are made of plywood usually reinforced with metal edges, or they're made entirely out of metal. Rattan weapons flex a bit when they hit someone, so all the force of a blow is not transferred efficiently to the target. A plywood shield edge very effectively transfers force.
(*3) "Poverty is owning horses" said the bumper sticker on the back of the horse trailer.
(*4) Origin of the word "decimated," the point when most units turn and flee. I suppose SCA "bravery" could be likened to Gloranthan morale magic, wyters, etc.
(*5) I mention this because there are loads of guys who put on armor for one summer and fight in a few SCA battles, then act like they're experts to the rest of the world for the rest of their lives. Those guys are an embarrassment to us.
(*6) That's a Combat Affinity Feat in HW terms. Snatch Spear acts as a Mystic Strike. If the opponent is driven to 0 AP, I take his spear away from him. And no, it isn't something that lots of SCA fighters can do.
I hope that's enough to clear up some confusion about where my experience comes from. It seems to me that there are some other SCA folk out there too--my memory makes me guess at Peter Metcalfe and Roderick, but I could be wrong. And, of course, Steve Perrin.
So, I'll summarize my opinions about spear and shield later. Enough.
Baron Corby de la Flamme, Knight of Atlantia sircorby_at_mac.com http://homepage.mac.com/sircorby "Que Les Mauvais Soient Dévore De La Flamme"
who is also
Mike Dawson Macintosh Tech Director on severance mdawson_at_mac.com http://homepage.mac.com/mdawson Sent to you using Mac OS X - the future of Macs!
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