Peter Metcalfe wrote:
Martin Dick:
>>My point is that Sartar's magic was all about nation building and
>>peace and that he and his heirs used that magic to rule Sartar for
>>over a century.
>"nation building" and "rule" are probably overstatements IMO.
Composite History of Dragon Pass Page 133
"He was a metamorphiser, and through his career as a nation-maker he changed the face of history and the land, as well as more mundane aspects of life."
Page 138
"The children of King Sartar were the leaders of his cult, and the leaders of the kingdom which he established as long as they upheld the vows and promises which the Founder has made. Thus they maintained the national unity of the clans and tribes, and protected the trade which passed through their lands.
From what I've read, I don't see it as an overstatement IMO As an aside, maybe the Household of Death was one of the reasons for the failure of the Kingdom, a bunch of fanatical Humakti are hardly in the tradition of Sartar and they did manage to kill off a significant portion of the Sartarite forces futilely attacking Tarsh. By having the heirs swear to Humakt, they may have violated the vows/promises of the Founder and thus doomed Sartar. Just an idea.
>>[...] but I am trying to say
>>that we should consider that there is also a strong current
>>in Sartar for a return to rule of the heirs of Sartar
>Like Temertain? You really have to quantify what you mean
>by "strong current". Everybody knows that life was better
>before the Lunars came and there is a fond nostalgia for
>those days. They also know that dreams of a return to such
>days are unrealistic because the only plausible claimant is
>a joke and the other contender only made things worse with
>her revolt.
Strong current - i.e I will put aside my feud with the Black Oaks, because X, the true heir of Sartar asks me to so that he/she can rid the land of the Lunars and because he/she is the true heir I will do it,
as opposed to Jack the weaponthane from another tribe says exactly the same things and I ignore him.
Given that Temertain, barely managed a flicker from the flame, many would not see him as a true heir of Sartar, but I can tell you, when I played Home of the Bold, quite a few people did suport him. But of course this is why the Lunars support Temertain, as I said earlier, because he blocks a lot of the political support that would accrue to another heir of Sartar. The power of the idea is also demonstrated by the Lunars attempts to eliminate the House of Sartar, or is that only a Home of the Bold concept?
Yes, unrealistic under Temertain, but hardly unrealistic under Kallyr or Argrath, given that we know one or the other manages a successful rebellion in 1625, and given Kallyr's adviser Minaryth is spurred on by the voice of Sartar, this would seem to indicate to me, that the idea of Sartar the hero and Sartar the nation has some strength in 1620s Sartar.
>>Sartar was an extraordinary man even in terms of Glorantha and his
>>influence must have changed the Dragon Pass Orlanthi in major
>>and lasting ways from the time before he came, all IMO of course.
>He's not that extraordinary. Look up Hendreiki and the Larnsti
>of Heortland (Glorantha: Intro p142-3).
As mentioned there he is the one man to negate the curse, makes him pretty special even amongst the Larnsti, of course Hendreik's pretty special too.
Martin Dick:
>> > Look at the Sartar description on p153 Glorantha: Intro for the
>> > origin and maintenance of the roads. They were magical in nature
>> > and so Sartar could do without any centralized road-making
>> > bureaucracy.
>>I'll have a look tonight, but even if they are done magically,
>>surely that implies a significant use of the area's magical
>>resources and heaps of community support from the tribes of
>>Sartar?
>The tribes worshipped Sartar because they got maintenance free
>roads and city walls. However because they worship him does
>not mean they will obey without question his heirs anymore than
>catholics (ancient and modern) obey the Pope.
>And as for the "significant use" of magic, I think that only
>the people to worship Sartar were the rings of the cities
>and unconfederated tribes using the magics that had been
>gifted to them in the sacred time ceremonies. They then
>carried out the sacrifices to him on day 88, perhaps using
>about one KoDP checkbox's worth of magic on that day.
Hardly sounds like that to me and from reading King of Dragon Pass. Clearly the roads as described are wondrous things and would require heaps of continuing community support to maintain, something supported by the very page you suggested
"Since the conquest, rituals to Sartar have been suppressed and the roads and walls fall into disrepair"
Why would they fall into disrepair so fast and why suppress his rituals if he was the equivalent of one checkbox of KoDP magic?
Boldhome is described as an 'impossible city' in Intro to Glorantha, created by Sartar, a significant chunk of it in one day, hardly the magic of one checkbox.
>> > But [the Jonstown Library] is sustainable by the tribes that
>> > make up the Jonstown confederation.
>>This is exactly the point I'm making, the confederations of
>>tribes have been actively working together for generations
>>on things like the Library.
>Only one tribal confederation supports the Jonstown Library.
>I think you are conflating the Cities (Tribal Confederations)
>and the Kingdom. The Cities existed before Sartar made
>Boldhome and they exist after Sartar has been conquered. The
>Kingdom united the Cities and the independent tribes. That
>has vanished, the Cities haven't.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I only meant one confederation were supporting the Library, i.e the Jonstown confederation supported the Library, other confederations supported other activities I'm sure.
So, we have a clear example where a group of three tribes who live right next to each other cooperate to build a city, maintain the city, spend great resources as a group building the Library and maintaining the Library over a century and yet, this has very little effect on the relationships between the tribes making up the confederation?
And that as soon as the Lunars win, that century's worth of cooperation flys out the door? Sure, there was always tensions between the tribes, but there was also always cooperation, the failure of the magics of Sartar and his heirs will increase the tensions and reduce the cooperation but will not eliminate it IMO.
As far as the cities existing before Sartar, I don't understand, according to everything I've read, Sartar was the creator of the cities according to the Composite History. So saying that they were there before he built Boldhome doesn't seem meaningful to me. Let's see
"... Out of such destruction Sartar forged the foundation of his cities and began changing the people to make a great nation.
The first city was Wilmskirk. Wilm was an old friend of Sartar's who designed and supervised construction of the city around its great open-air temple...
Sartar also raised the first of his great walls around the city, blessed it and visited the city often during the years before he found Boldhome."
So city 1, Wilmskirk, tribes in the city - Kultain, Locaem, Balmyr and Sambari, Sartar is instrumental in creating the city.
City 2 - Jonstown - Sartar is instrumental in creating this city as well for the following tribes - Culbrea, Maboder and Cinsina.
"After this impressive display of magic and politics, the local tribes agreed to give Sartar's plan a try. He magically erected the walls first, then set up the city ring."
Again Sartar is instrumental in forming the city.
City 3 - Swenstown - tribes in the city Dundealos, Kheldon, Aranwyth, Balkoth and Pol Joni
"In 1486, Sartar the Peacemaker as he was called, was approached by Swen Leapfoot, ..., who bore a request that Sartar come among his people and talk of cities and walls."
Again Sartar is instrumental in forming the city
City 4 - Boldhome - All the clans and tribes
"In 1492, Sartar assembled the leaders from the cities, allied tribes and independent clans. He built the famous city of Boldhome ... To celebrate the event, the kings and chiefs decided to join in a greater co-operation than they already had and elected Sartar to be first (Prince) of the Quivini. He organised the Ring of Sartar, and this is considered to be the foundation of the Kingdom of Sartar."
Again, instrumental in the creation of the city and the nation.
City 5 - Duck Point - oh well 4 out of 5 ain't bad :-)
The key here is that the city rings and the cities are all quite clearly steps in Sartar's plan to forge the Kingdom of Sartar. By binding all of the city rings to himself, he sets himself up to create the Ring of Sartar. IMO, the cities are integrally linked to the nation of Sartar. It seems unlikely to me, that the magic he created to forge the Ring of Sartar would be weaker than the magic he used to create the city rings. In some ways, it is the defining moment of Sartar's life and magic.
Coming back to my point :-), this has got to be a strong influence on the internal politics of Sartar in the 1620s and I'm sure one of the key issues facing Kallyr is convinving people that she is a true heir of Sartar and that when she does that she gains significant allies.
>>I don't believe that this can
>>happen if the Princes of Sartar spent the 1500s just keeping
>>the lid on inter-tribal and inter-clan warfare.
>AFAIK it isn't the job of the princes to settle such matters.
>The chosen leaders of the tribes and cities settle such disputes,
>not some faraway prince in Boldhome. What the Prince is concerned
>with is public works and defense of the kingdom. By merely being,
>he does create an environment that encourages the peaceful
>settlement of disputes in that the leaders are less likely to
>choose violence.
Yes, but the "merely being" is not just sitting in his castle, to me, it involves rites and worship and community support.
And I agree as the paragraph was meant to convey, that he doesn't have to spend lots of time on this, because the clans and tribes are far less belligerent and more cooperative than they were in the time before the Kingdom of Sartar.
>>I'm not trying to say that Sartar turned the Dragon Pass Orlanthi
>>into a regimented society akin to Prussia and Germany, I just think
>>that too heavy emphasis on the differences between the clans
>>and tribes downplays the commonalities they have and downplays
>>the role of the Princes of Sartar and the belief that many
>>Sartarites have in him and his heirs as the ruler of the nation
>>of Sartar.
>Well it is known that after Sartar was crushed, rivalries and
>feuds quickly flared and fighting was quite common.
True, but
>IMO if
>the belief in Sartar was as strong as you think, peace would
>have taken a lot longer to break down.
Are you then proposing that the princes of Sartar were actively suppressing the enemities between the clans and tribes, so that once they were gone, then the thing broke apart? Not a strawman, but a question.
> Hence I'd place the
>loyalties of most Sartarites to the nation as a distant third
>behind clan and tribe (fourth if the cities are counted).
But I think the whole point of Sartar the man, was to show people that loyalty to the Kingdom of Sartar was in fact loyalty to their clan and tribe and city.
And while I agree, most (being some number greater than 50%) Sartarites don't see that now, I think a significant number still do.
Martin
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