> >"nation building" and "rule" are probably overstatements IMO.
>[KoS quotes snipped]
> From what I've read, I don't see it as an overstatement
>IMO
I'm really approaching "rule" and "nation-building" from the
modern PoV about such things. Sartar and his heirs are not
rulers according to our concepts of a ruler. They are much
weaker in that their powers only dealt with certain matters
(such as defense of Sartar or public works) - they certainly
could not intervene in internal matters of the tribe or clan
in the way that modern governments can intervene in family
matters.
As for "nation-building", I really think you are relying on modern concepts of nation-states, rather than something like the kingdom of Scotland, the Holy Roman Empire or the Laird of Ireland. Sartar created a strongly decentralized state - anything more would have impacted strongly upon the Orlanthi notion of freedom.
> >You really have to quantify what you mean by "strong current"
> >[for a return to rule of the heirs of Sartar
>Strong current - i.e I will put aside my feud with the
>Black Oaks, because X, the true heir of Sartar asks me
>to so that he/she can rid the land of the Lunars and
>because he/she is the true heir I will do it,
Temertain, whether Sartarites like it or not, is a true heir. He has the ancestry and he has made the flame of Sartar flicker. And secondly, although the Princes of Sartar could ask clans to settle feuds, the clan could always say "no". That one of them does for Argrath is a significant event.
>Given that Temertain, barely managed a flicker from the
>flame, many would not see him as a true heir of Sartar,
Yet when Kallyr does the same thing (KoS p145), the same people see her as a true heir?
>But of course this is why the Lunars
>support Temertain, as I said earlier, because he blocks a
>lot of the political support that would accrue to another
>heir of Sartar.
This is IMO simplistic for two reasons. Firstly, the "Lunars" are far from a monolithic ideology and their policies on what should be done changes every now and then. In 1610 when they conquered Pavis, they slew Dorasar's heirs because they were descended from the House of Sartar. Yet in 1613, they accept Temertain as an heir when they could have killed him with ease.
Secondly, Temertain is not tolerated because he "blocks" support. He is tolerated because he is the legitimate heir of Sartar and useful to the Empire because he validates their rule. Currently the policy is to transform Sartar from a web of tribal and clan governments into a more national government like that of Tarsh.
>Yes, unrealistic under Temertain, but hardly unrealistic
>under Kallyr or Argrath,
Who is Argrath? Kallyr is some bint from the Kheldron tribe who lead a foolish revolt back in 1613 and promptly fled the country when Temertain appeared. Last time anybody heard of her, she was a camp-follower of King Broyan (a one-time slave of the pharaoh) and fat lot of good she did him. From ruling the Volsaxi, he's now holed up in Whitewall.
Only Eurmali are likely to believe that Kallyr will be leading a Lunar-free Sartar in the near future. Most other Orlanthi make a more sober assessment and conclude the chances of a Lunar-free Sartar are dim. When the going is hard, Orlanth teaches you to rely on your clan and tribe and _not_ some pie-in-the-sky dream.
>given that we know one or the
>other manages a successful rebellion in 1625,
The rebellion only _occurred_ because the Dragon devoured Tatius, the Lunar Army and their Sartarite allies. It would have been crushed by Tarsh had not Fazzur been stabbed in the back by Moirades. Between 1613 and 1625, only fools dare dream about rebellion. _After_ 1625, everything has changed.
>and given Kallyr's adviser Minaryth is spurred on by the voice
>of Sartar,
"We are to expect the return of Sartar because you are advised by a madman with voices in his head? Right."
> >And as for the "significant use" of magic, I think that only
> >the people to worship Sartar were the rings of the cities
> >and unconfederated tribes using the magics that had been
> >gifted to them in the sacred time ceremonies. They then
> >carried out the sacrifices to him on day 88, perhaps using
> >about one KoDP checkbox's worth of magic on that day.
>Hardly sounds like that to me and from reading King of Dragon
>Pass. Clearly the roads as described are wondrous things
According to Greg, they are mundane (he says, recently bitten).
>and would require heaps of continuing community support
>to maintain, something supported by the very page you suggested
>[snipped]
>Why would they fall into disrepair so fast and why
>suppress his rituals if he was the equivalent of
>one checkbox of KoDP magic?
The disrepair starts since 1602 and about twenty years worth of non-maintenance is noticeable. This would be especially true for the roads as ice forms underneath them every winter, swelling and creating pot-holes. Five winters without repair and they would be very bad.
As for suppressing the rituals, I can only surmise that the reason to do so was to reduce the resistance of the realm. If every clan and tribe worshipped Sartar (as they do Orlanth), then the rituals would be nigh impossible to suppress.
>Boldhome is described as an 'impossible city' in Intro
>to Glorantha, created by Sartar, a significant chunk
>of it in one day, hardly the magic of one checkbox.
But Boldhome was made with the aid of the dwarves, not by the Cult of Sartar. It was made to validate his kingship and provide proof as to why the tribes should support him.
>So, we have a clear example where a group of three tribes
>who live right next to each other cooperate to build a
>city, maintain the city, spend great resources as a group
>building the Library and maintaining the Library over
>a century and yet, this has very little effect on the
>relationships between the tribes making up the confederation?
You originally contended that there was a _national_ feeling of co-operation on the evidence of the Jonstown Library. I pointed out that co-operative relations would be among the clan first, then tribe and then city. I have never denied city co-operation but point out that here it takes the form of what's-in-it- for-me? rather than any notion of sharing and kinship support.
>And that as soon as the Lunars win, that century's worth
>of cooperation flys out the door?
It's what the record says. Who among the Jonstown Tribes lifted a finger to save the Maboder from the Telmori?
>As far as the cities existing before Sartar, I don't understand,
>according to everything I've read, Sartar was the creator of
>the cities according to the Composite History.
They were there before the Kingdom of Sartar. Their existence is not dependant on the cult of Sartar as other Orlanthi have formed such confederations without Sartar's aid. Sartar was instrumental in their making, but not essential to their continued existence.
>IMO, the cities are integrally linked to the nation of Sartar.
That may be, but they still exist despite the demise of the nation of Sartar and the related cult of Sartar. If the City Rings no longer existed, then the support they receive from the tribes will be far reduced and they will suffer for it.
> >What the Prince is concerned
> >with is public works and defense of the kingdom. By merely being,
> >he does create an environment that encourages the peaceful
> >settlement of disputes in that the leaders are less likely to
> >choose violence.
>Yes, but the "merely being" is not just sitting in his castle,
>to me, it involves rites and worship and community support.
IMO no. Rites and worship is confined to matters of public works and defense of the Kingdom. There are no rites for the settlement of clan feuds throughout the kingdom because that is not the job of the Prince of Sartar. The Prince interacts with the Cities and unaffiliated tribes, not the Orlanthi at large.
>Are you then proposing that the princes of Sartar were
>actively suppressing the enemities between the clans
>and tribes, so that once they were gone, then the
>thing broke apart?
No. Your claim is that a belief in Sartar would have kept a lid on such grievances. I believe that such grievances were resolved peacefully because of the prince's "simply existing" created an environment for peaceful resolution. But since the Kingdom is defunct, there's no such environment. All the lunars have to do is say "well, why not sort it out yourself?" when asked to resolve differences and the Orlanthi will fall upon each other.
> >Hence I'd place the
> >loyalties of most Sartarites to the nation as a distant third
> >behind clan and tribe (fourth if the cities are counted).
>But I think the whole point of Sartar the man, was to
>show people that loyalty to the Kingdom of Sartar was
>in fact loyalty to their clan and tribe and city.
You are not seeing things the Orlanthi way. The social cosmos is constructed upon kinship ties. You support your closest kin (the clan) and then your tribe. Beyond the tribe and clan, kinship ties are very thin and most Orlanthi ignore them (but the tribal ring members do not).
Sartar did not affect the ordinary Orlanthi. What he did was to work with the Tribal _Kings_. They decide the best interests of their people and it is only by convincing them that he managed to create the Kingdom. He does not need to convince the Orlanthi at large to do so, for once he has convinced the tribal kings, they will do their damned best to swing in the their people.
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #249
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