>Given that the way Sartar managed to build his power and influence
>amongst the Dragon Pass Orlanthi was to 'interfere' in the affairs
>of tribes and clans and individuals,
He did? All I can see is events external to the tribe and clans. As I've pointed out before, the record of the Princes of Sartar is the record of public works and defense of the realm. There's scant material about them resolving internal problems unlike that of the Emperors of Dara Happa.
There is material about Sartar blessing the ordinary people, but none of his heirs do this. A major internal problem that we do know about, the problem of the Elmali, was not resolved by the Prince of Sartar but festered on for several years. It was resolved by Tarkalor, who wasn't Prince at the time, seeking to make a name for himself, rather than working for the good of Sartar.
>I'm only guessing of course, but I imagine, Sartar regularly
>turned up on his tribes/clans doorstep, saying "I hear there is
>a problem going on, can I help?" and then solving the situation
>peacefully to the satisfaction of all concerned.
And turning up to resolve an internal problem within a clan or tribe would be deeply shameful to the clan or tribe. If they accept his help to resolve something they should have been able to handle themselves, they are proclaiming to all and sundry that they are incompetent spazmos that couldn't follow Orlanth's way.
>and that is what the
>Ring of Sartar is, a very powerful bonding magic which was in
>parallel to their clan and tribal loyalties and not instead of
>them.
Given that Sartar's cult is a hero cult, I see no evidence that the Ring of Sartar affects each and every Sartarite in this way. Besides his rune was change, not harmony.
> > >Boldhome is described as an 'impossible city' in Intro
> > >to Glorantha, created by Sartar, a significant chunk
> > >of it in one day, hardly the magic of one checkbox.
> > But Boldhome was made with the aid of the dwarves, not by
> > the Cult of Sartar. It was made to validate his kingship
> > and provide proof as to why the tribes should support him.
>And it was the equivalent of one check box of magic how?
Pardon? Boldhome is made with the aid of _dwarves_, not by the Cult of Sartar.
>The descriptions don't seem to indicate that he had
>any help with building the walls,
>"He established the famous city of Boldhome by erecting
>the walls overnight"
"Finally to answer an ancient prophecy, he built
Boldhome in a powerful and beautiful valley, high
amidst the Quivini crags. He was aided by the
race of dwarfish Mostali."
KoS p218
>I really don't beleive that tribes can actively participate
>in city life, rituals and development for over a century
>without their being something beyond "what's in it for me"
>for a lot of people, just the interchange of bloodlines via
>marriage would ensure this.
Interchange of Bloodlines via marriage occurs among all Orlanthi. Despite this, they are still very much "what's in it for me" with respect to other Orlanthi, not part of their clan or tribe.
> > [The Cities] were there before the Kingdom of Sartar. Their
> > existence is not dependant on the cult of Sartar as other
> > Orlanthi have formed such confederations without Sartar's aid.
> > Sartar was instrumental in their making, but not essential to
> > their continued existence.
>I can't see any evidence one way or the other for this, but I
>would be astounded that after creating the city rings, Sartar
>and his line weren't heavily involved in them.
What do you mean "heavily involved"? Dealt with them on a day by day basis? Yes. That the City Rings required the cult of Sartar to survive? No.
> > No. Your claim is that a belief in Sartar would have
> > kept a lid on such grievances. I believe [...]
>Actually I never claimed that, I said that the Cult of
>Sartar/Ring of Sartar/Nation of Sartar changed the Dragon
>Pass Orlanthi from what they were like before Sartar.
The cult of Sartar being the belief in Sartar that I mentioned before. And since Sartar is only a hero, I do find the notion of him changing the Orlanthi to such a degree rather implausible.
> > You are not seeing things the Orlanthi way. The social
> > cosmos is constructed upon kinship ties. You support
> > your closest kin (the clan) and then your tribe. Beyond
> > the tribe and clan, kinship ties are very thin and most
> > Orlanthi ignore them (but the tribal ring members do not).
>The recent heavy emphasis on kinship ties is really neat, but
>we can take it too far. Kinship is a very elastic notion IMO
>amongst the Orlanthi. Let's look at the LightBringers, all
>members of the Storm Tribe
They have been accepted into the Storm Tribe and so they are kin by definition. Yelm, even though he is related to a couple of Storm tribe members (Orlanth, Elmal etc), is not considered kin because he is not within the storm tribe. Yes, the Orlanthi do take the concept of kinship ties too far IMO.
>If most Orlanthi ignore their kinship ties beyond the tribe and
>clan in Sartar and the tribal clan ring don't then they won't
>be on the tribal clan ring for long in an Orlanthi environement,
>IMO.
The ring members are _politicians_. They are skilled at making
their people accept unpleasant decisions (like pay Lunar taxes).
>Finally, don't you think that a Sartar where there is a current
>of mythical unity and nationalism, not a Sartar, Sartar Uber Alles
>nationalism, but a mythical/religious one is more interesting
>than one where such a stream of thought is some insignificant
>minority.
All forms of nationalism are mythical. Even though there is widespread nostalgia for the Kingdom of Sartar, this does not mean that all Sartarites co-operate with each other just because they are Sartarites. Even in the RW, regional and kinship rivalries play a significant part in nation-states.
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