> > He did? All I can see is events external to the tribe and clans.
>Some examples of things internal to clans and tribes
>Turns a band of assassins into termites to save the sleeping
>family of the Colymar King.
This looks more like an external threat to me.
>Settled a war between the Kultain, Locaem, Balmyr and Sambari
>tribes [etc]
Martin, these are _external_ matters, relationships _between_ the tribes. I'm pointing out that there's no record of Sartar of his heirs resolving a matter _within_ a tribe or clan, the sort that crops up in KoDP.
> > There is material about Sartar blessing the ordinary people, but
> > none of his heirs do this.
>It's true that sort of detail isn't given for his heirs but, what
>is given is very short, not counting Salinarg, we have three pages
>for 80 years of history, and it obviously concentrates on the threats
>to Sartar as a nation.
Even if it is very short, we still have the material from KoS p42-44, which summarizes what the Kings and Princes of Sartar are best known for. As pointed out before, it's defense and public works and nary a hint about keeping the peace. That says a lot about what was expected of them.
>In addition, I find it hard to believe
>that his heirs immediately abandoned his precepts and beliefs
>and suddenly become remote kings sitting in Boldhome with little
>concern for the common folk.
They haven't abandoned his precepts and beliefs. They are continuing the duties that have been entrusted to them, i.e. serve the common people best by erecting public works and defending the kingdom.
>Hmmm, the Elmali problem, a major internal problem solved by
>one Tarkalor. That wouldn't happen to be the Tarkalor who
>is the grandson of Sartar would it?
Yes, and he resolved it _before_ he became Prince of Sartar. If the Princes of Sartar were settling disputes with a minimum of fuss, then I wouldn't expect such a major dispute to go unresolved during the reign of three princes.
>The Tarkalor who (page 44 of KoS) "And also he made many fine
>buildings of the city for guilds and commoners, and the beggar's
>bedrow, too."
Is he resolving internal disputes of the tribes and clans or is he building public works?
> > If they accept his help to resolve something they should have
> > been able to handle themselves, they are proclaiming to all
> > and sundry that they are incompetent spazmos that couldn't
> > follow Orlanth's way.
>Well, then there must be a lot of spazmos in the Balmyr, Locaem,
>Kultain, Sambari, Culbrea, Maboder, Cinsina, Aranwyth, Balkoth,
>Dundealos and Kheldon tribes, because all of these had Sartar
>actively involved in their affairs.
Sartar was only involved in resolving their external difficulties in which it is not shameful to accept outside help for. Internal problems are meant to be resolved within the clan or tribe.
> > [Sartar] was aided by the race of dwarfish Mostali."
> > KoS p218
>So for all the walls and cities which he built, all he
>was actually doing was acting as a supervisor to a
>work crew of dwarves.
Your interpretation, not mine. I simply pointed out that the building of Boldhome was performed with the aid of the dwarves and that IMO the tribes provided nothing to this end.
>Just because it didn't fall to pieces immediately
>the Ring of Sartar broke, doesn't mean that the City Rings
>haven't been hurt by the brealking of the Ring of Sartar.
But since most tribal sympathies for the ideal of Sartar vanished the same day as the Kingdom fell, yet the City Rings still survive (despite Lunar maladministration), I do feel that the cult of Sartar was mortar to the bricks of the City Ring more than anything else.
>The logic to me is that, if Sartar created the City Ring
>magic, and was instrumental in the creation of each specific
>city ring, then obviously his magic is a major part of it.
But that's not to say the magic of City Ring is embodied in the cult of Sartar. A lot of what Sartar did, his cult did not teach. Sartar was a man of non-violence yet his heirs fought with weapons. Sartar changed things yet his heirs have no faculty for doing this.
>[Sartar's] at least on the same level as Alakoring and Harmast,
>both who have had major impacts on Orlanthi culture.
I don't think those impacts are as great as you suppose. In Alakoring's case, he strengthened the tribe but did little to affect ordinary clan life.
>Yes, aren't they flexible, they can take total strangers in and
>consider them kin, they can take psychotic lunatics like Urox,
>Vadrus and Eurmal in as kin, but considering that the clan in
>the next valley might be kin, that's beyond the pale?
That's roughly Orlanthi kinship in a nutshell.
> > The ring members are _politicians_. They are skilled at making
> > their people accept unpleasant decisions (like pay Lunar taxes).
>Yes, and as politicians they have to be actively concerned with
>desires of those they represent, especially in the small town
>politics we are talking of. I doubt that paying Lunar taxes is
>something that the average Orlanthi is not thinking about
>an awful lot.
The point is the taxes are unfair and oppressive. The Orlanthi do not want to pay them and their mythology says taxes are evil, being an invention of the Emperor. Despite this, the Ring members still manage to convince their people to fork over the necessary cows.
> > Even though there is
> > widespread nostalgia for the Kingdom of Sartar, this does not
> > mean that all Sartarites co-operate with each other just
> > because they are Sartarites.
>You keep implying that I'm saying _all_ Orlanthi say this, in fact
>immediately after the part you quote, I said
Because you do imply this was the case during the Kingdom and the statement that you refer to is when the Kingdom has vanished. In any case when talking about the Sartarites/Orlanthi, all always means 85% so I fail to see how I am misrepresenting you here.
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