> > Anything that you say against Temertain can
> > also be said against Kallyr.
>Exactly and then I went on to say that would explain Kallyr's
>problems could be explained by this, so I'm not sure what your
>point is.
I'm pointing out the reason why ordinary Sartarites would not go out of their way to aid an heir to the throne of Sartar in the years 1613-25.
>In what way? Because some Lunars didn't agree with the policy
>of putting Temertain on the throne, this somehow means that
>the Lunars who did put Temertain on the throne didn't see it
>a method to block other claimants to the throne such as Kallyr?
There is a real difference between saying "the Lunars who placed Temertain on the throne" and "the Lunars placed Temertain on the throne". You keep saying the latter despite my protestations.
>[...] within a minute or two of meeting Temertain, I knew that he
>would never really be a Prince of Sartar, even though I spent
>most of the game trying to get him to be. I'm sure Fazzur is
>considerably more perceptive than I am.
But Fazzur did not meet Temertain until _after_ the revolt had ended. Despite this, he's prepared to accept Temertain as a prince as soon as he gets the message and summons the rebels to discuss terms. If I were Fazzur and Temertain a threat to the Lunars as an heir of Sartar, I would put the rebels to the sword and cross and then storm Boldhome.
> > Why should all Lunars of every race and creed fear the
> > descendants of Sartar? They do not fear Illaro Blacktooth's
> > heirs as they are now calm and sensible Lunars.
>So why do they go out of their way to kill them, if they
>don't fear them or see them as a problem?
Who is they? Certainly not all Lunars. Salinarg's household did not survive the conquest but we do not know if it was deliberate murder or the result of the geases that his family took. There was a slaughter of Dorasar's Household in 1610 but we don't know for what reason it was done. Significantly Fazzur was in Pavis in 1610 and disgraced for an unknown reason. We do not know he was sent home because he a) objected to the slaughter, b) wantonly butchered Dorasar's kin so the King of Tarsh could annex Sartar, or c) he had an argument with SorEel over the favours offered by Count Varthanis II. Saying the Lunars killed the house of Sartar blinds us to a lot of possibilities IMO
>they consider [the House of Sartar] a threat to
>their occupation of Sartar and like the sensible and
>ruthless imperialists that they are, they decide to get
>rid of that threat.
They are not sensible and ruthless imperialists, the House of Sartar is not a feasible threat after the conquest and look at what they did with Richard the Tigerhearted as soon as they captured him.
>Well, they suppress his rituals, they kill his descendants except
>for one who supports them, is an idiot and who is dependant on them
>for support, sounds to me that they see it a pretty negative, except
>for the one exception which they can get to collaborate with them.
I am quite disappointed that my statements about the dangers of treating the Lunars as a monolithic entity are not getting through.
>Your Tarshite example is probably relevant to Sartar in a century,
>if the Lunars had held Sartar for that long.
Martin, the Kings of Tarsh have been ruling Tarsh ever since the Lunars took it over. The risk of backsliding among the heirs of Illaro Blacktooth is zilch. The same goes for each and every provincial kingdom and it was intended also for Heortland.
>The Lunars assimilated the Tarshite ruling household, they didn't
>wipe them out.
But they could have assimilated the House of Sartar also just as they attempted to do so with Sir Richard. This was not done for unknown reasons, but it does not follow that the House of Sartar was a threat that has to be exterminated.
>But let's say in Tarsh, a heroic descendant of Palashee LongAxe
>arose or Arim the Pauper, I think then the Lunar methods would
>change drastically.
Palashee Longaxe arose and kicked the Lunars out. When he was killed, the Lunars went back to the tried and true ways, rule by the heirs of Illaro Blacktooth. No, their methods would not change drastically.
> > What rebels? All I can see is seven conspirators in league with
> > foreign powers. There's no widespread rebellion before the
> > dragon rises. It is only _after_ the event that rebellion
> > against the Empire became rational for ordinary people.
>Sure, right, there was only seven of them, isn't the climactic
>scenario of the Sartar Rising! campaign a heroquest for the
>player characters to handle the attack on the stars?
The day when the fate of Sartar rests at the hands of PCs is a sorry day indeed. I am talking about "widespread rebellion" among the ordinary people of Sartar, not what PC-types get up to.
>Clearly, rebel activity was on-going and continuous throughout
>the whole period of the Lunar Occupation,
For the most part, it's localized unrest that will soon die down. Nothing serious. After 1613, there's nothing like Starbrow's rebellion or the Righteous Wind. Broyan causes far more trouble than the whole of Sartar.
>So they can suppress Orlanth in Tarsh, but not suppress
>Sartar in Sartar.
Sartar's worship _is_ suppressed. I'm pointing out that because it is suppressed, it can't have been common as you think it was.
>But given that they did it, I see no reason
>why the Lunars wouldn't believe that they could suppress the
>Cult of Sartar,
It's not that the Lunars want to suppress the cult of Sartar or not, it's the fact that they are able to and have done so. If Sartar was worshipped in every clan, they could not do this just as they could not prevent Orlanth's worship in Sartar.
>hardly any one in Sartar cares about it any more,
Nobody has said this. What I have said is that there is fond nostalgia for the days of the Kingdom but planning and acting as it will be revived in the near future is something only fools and heroes do, _not_ ordinary Sartarites.
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #254
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