>For a start, the Hunters do not normally worship Yelmalio, as
>"The cult of Yelmalio is a specialized cult of nobles and city
>dwellers, though occasional Balazaring Hunters also join it to
>gain the noble status implied by the religion."
You're right but what's the point of them seeking noble status if the Votanki and the citadel dwellers are two separate cultures? There's no unifying force if the citadel dwellers are a theistic solar culture and they're an animistic culture.
>Also if Yelmalio was ecstatically worshipped then outsiders would >_not_be
>able to worship at the temple.
Not if the Votanki are considered one big family. Yes, they do fight occasionally but if they consider themselves one big family despite that that might allow them to worship at the citadels.
>Sun County is an example of a theistic culture that has survived
>amongst an animist population (Praxians). The Vendrefs are theists
>within a dominant animist pantheon (Grazers). The trolls are
>animist yet they support several theistic cults. Just because the
>rulebook doesn't mention the possibility isn't evidence that such
>arrangements are impossible.
But this only applies if the two groups have separate cultures and I don't think they are.
Peter Metcalfe
>But I just said that I doubted Balazar had the capacity to take
>away most of his able-bodied men even if he wanted to. The
>limit is nothing to do with desire and everything to do with
>the capacity. It's not as if they were going to be away for
>a day or so.
That's very true BUT we don't know how many people we're talking about here and since priests, etc. are always such small percentages of a population it wouldn't have been that hard for most of them to go.
Me
>>Maybe that suggests that Balazar did steal/obtain the Votanki swine
>> >>god/spirit.
>But the Votanki don't have pigs. And Balazar stole Entra from
>the EWF.
Sorry terminology problem on my part. But again the distinction only holds true if the citadel dwellers are a different population than the Votanki and I don't think they are.
Peter
>>>Mereran is a goddess (she's mentioned in Anaxial's Roster p33)
>>>and be found on the god plane, not the spirit plane.
>>Doesn't mean there isn't a great hawk spirit as well though.
>Yes, it pretty much does. The patron deity of the great vrok
>hawks is a theistic entity, thus there's no way that an animist
>could go onto the spirit plane to find a great vrok spirit. At
>the very best, he would have returned with a totally different
>species of big flying bird.
So there can't be a horse god and a horse spirit? It seems that I recall that the Heortlings worship a horse goddess and the Grazelanders a horse spirit. This doesn't hold water.
Me
>>The biggest problem I see is that for the Votanki to give up their
>>traditional beliefs and becoming theists they are severing their
>>connections to their ancestors.
>You misunderstand. My suggestions were either:
>
>1) make the Citadel Dwellers the descendants of the people who came
> in with Balazar. That way nobody gives up their ancestors.
No, I got your point I just don't agree because I don't see them as being as separate as you suggest.
>2) stipulate the Votanki to always have been a theistic culture.
> Theists can have ancestor worship as Thunder Rebels shows.
Now the second suggestion has merit but they don't strike me as theists. It's certainly the easiest solution I guess but not necessarily the most interesting.
>>The Votanki can accept him easier, Balazar can join their
>>family and teach the people the skills needed to live in citadels.
>What good is a citadel to the Votanki? There's always been a >difference
>between the Votanki and the Citadel Dwellers in GM.
That's a good question. They certainly don't perform the same function a modern or even a medieval city would have performed for rural areas. They don't produce anything the Votanki either need or want except maybe pork. Two of the citadels are there because Balazar put them there. Off the top of my head I can't remember who built Elkoi. I think it was one of Balazar's sons. And he built it because he had lost his to his sister (according to the Dykene).
The issue pretty distills down to the two alternatives Peter stated :
Or the way I've described it.
Balazar comes in with his band of followers, unifies the "tribes", builds the two citadels, introduces pigs to Balazar and introduces Tharkantus worship to the Votanki. Most of followers he had died during the Dragonkill war (and we have no evidence/idea of how many followers he had) and the originally theistic religion lapses into misapplied animistic worship.
This results in a situation where the two groups have strong ties and share some deities. Votank taught men to be men, the Hearthmother taught women how to be women, Foundchild taught the people how to hunt and Balazar taught them how to lead and how to live in the citadels. Balazar introduced Tharkantus who showed them how to fight trolls better. I think worship of Balazar actually accounts for the noble worship not Tharkantus. Living at the citadels is like living in the winter hearths. Every winter the Votanki gather in the winter hearths for mutual protection so they are familiar with the concept of living in large groups. The citadels just enlarge on this and much to the traditionalists disgust people stay there year round.
Yes, making Tharkantus worship misapplied is clunky but I still think it beats the alternatives you propose. I don't like the idea that the two groups are as separate as you suggest and I think the society as described in GM feels more like an animistic culture than a theistic one.
Oliver Bernuetz
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