Peter Metcalfe on Malkioni:
>Their God is a philosophical god akin to Plato's Good or Aristotle's
>Demiurge.
It's difficult to avoid the analogy between Malkioni clergy & RW catholic clergy but this helps a lot clarifying things. I'd say it makes a big difference...
If the Invisible God is akin to Plato & Aristotle's philosophical concepts i'm sure that the Brithinous students at Sog City could recognize him as well (though the real Brithini won't).
Me:
>>Even those who don't worship pagan gods
>>indulge in alien, subjective concepts like Idealism or Realism and
>>morality,
>>which have nothing to do with pure Logic.
>Idealism and Realism are not subjective concepts. The Realists
>contend the corrupt material world impedes one's chances of
>Solace and so their church encourages rigorous modes of behaviour
>and lengthy purgation rituals. The Idealists believe that to
>be close to God, one should act in an Ideal manner.
I see your point and agree from a mainstream Malkion PoV. But the Brithini don't believe this. They didn't believe Malkion when he said that the changes Glorantha underwent induced new postulates. And after this, other prophets issued other views that kept on differing. IMO this shouldn't happen if the Laws of Logic were clearly defined, but i'm not that good at maths and maybe i'm wrong. I think there are thinkers in Sog City who try to find the One True Logic Path and reject the other views as unconsistent. They recognize the world has changed and Malkion was probably right, and possibly Hrestol too, but Hrestol's (and maybe even Malkion's) original faiths were lost and they try to rediscover them. Maybe they consider the Brithini's ideas are useful as a starting point, so they come to Sog City to learn from them. Maybe it's a very recent phenomenon (because the thinkers are sorcerers who think they are smart with all their theories and like to get smashed on marsh-wine). Of course, those philosophers are a minority. Usually people just come for the magic spells and prestige (i studied at the SCU!), and well, all of this just IMO for what it's worth. (what is the legal punishment for such ravings in Loskalm?)
>>What about if an Aeolus was a saintly wizard misapplyingly worshipping
>>Orlanth Thunderous and becoming a sorcerous hero of that god?
>He's not a hero of Orlanth Thunderous. He's a Saint of God that
>showed the acceptable way to worship Orlanth.
Oops. I didn't remember the story in the cult writeup well. Could a wizard become a hero of Orlanth Thunderous through veneration of Saint Worlath, or are all wizard heroquesters considererd as saints of god?
>>Thus, henotheists could
(snip)
>>- - sacrifice to gods as saints and get affinities (like in Otkorion)
>If they sacrifice to gods, then they are engaging in theism.
But of course that's still henotheism. In the writeup i saw, the Otkorioni also had sorcerers among them, and even worshipped the Invisible God (with no benefit). In fact they seem to be normal Orlanthi with important influences from Safelster. Glorantha Intro implicitly states that they turned to worshipping the Invisible God (and why not calling their gods 'Saints') so as to avoid being tapped by the Galvosti (and drive them out of Otkorion BTW). They are not like the Aeolians who switched from theism to sorcery.
>One thing you left out in your list: worshipping Saints as Gods (like
>the Flamebringer's Temple in Tarsh).
I forgot this one! IIRC those Otkorioni do it as well, sacrificing to Saint Gerlant and getting Flamesword feats, as well as other Malkioni saints. Probably it's a peculiar feature of the Otkorioni.
>To worship a fragment of the original arkat cult is not misapplied
>worship. Arkat could be considered to be a defiant cult (like
>Storm Bull). Worship of them is normal (whatever that is) but the
>cultists have great difficulty in grokking the big picture and
>putting it all together.
Arkat shouldn't be an easy path for anyone, that's why the idea of misapplied worship seemed convenient to me. But i like the idea about his cults being fragments of the original one. Each could hold a small piece of the original Secret of Arkat. I used to believe this Secret was Illumination, and that each aspect can only teach what it knew about it, but actually i have no idea. There's also that power to Sense the Deceiver, which each aspects could have some strange flaws for. Frx Destroyers could sometimes Sense the Deceiver even when the person or thing are clean, because they prefer to destroy too much than not enough, or Chaosbanes wouldn't Sense the Deceiver in a non-Chaotic being, except a Chaotic illuminant...
As regards the Fronelan Orlanthi, i'm very curious about Jonat's story. What did he do exactly? (provided this is not too much confidential at the moment)
Joerg Baumgartner: Re: Non-Heortlings
>Julian Lord
>>Some of the Orlanthi of "Dorastor" would be Alakorings,
>but not all of them.
>
>The Heortlings or Vanchites exiled there wouldn't, all the rest would.
>Both Lanksti and Pelorian Orlanthi follow the Alakoring tribal model.
The people of Talastar may have been influenced by the Dorastor Heortling colonists a lot, though. The Heortlings were powerful and successful in the area, before Gbaji's birth. But maybe the following events urged the Talastar people to go back to their former traditions.
>>People involved in Westfaring or left behind during such activity, I
>>believe.
>
>The Westfaring never was a mass migration, and neither was the
>plundering of Aron. I think that Talor took a band of Orlanthi with him
>back to Fronela after the destruction of the City of Miracles.
Could you tell me about the Westfaring? Has it anything to do with the Lightbringers' Quest or is it a name for a migration? What are Aron and the City of Miracles?
Julian Lord:
>I wasn't correcting you : just making that specific detail clearer for
>Jerome, who isn't a native English speaker.
Is my English so bad? Well i'm sorry :)
>Not all of them. For instance, some of the Solanthi clans are quite
>sophisticated "Orlanthi" peoples.
I think so. The Ditali too. They probably have muddy cities or maybe oppida. The Ditali are ruled by many Malkioni lords and within the warrior class both cultures must have rubbed off on one another, making the Harandings' boar more of a symbol. I don't think the Ditali lords were Trader Princes, because they're scattered in a broad area whereas i believe the Trader Princes' fiefs stretch along the north road, but it's only IMO. I think they were mercenary knights for the Trader Princes who settled there once the road was opened, probably with the Princes' blessing. Deeper inland and in the west the clans may be more primitive Harandings, who may have somehow mixed with the Boar Hsunchen and even other animals. There Orlanth the Boar is more than an icon. As for the Solanthi, some clans worship Orlanth as a lion, and their origin may be different too. There were Basmoli in Maniria before, and Orlanth may have become a lion, but because of Basmol's tendency at being skinned, the Storm god might also have done the job there. Storm over the forest may have altered their picturing of Orlanth too. Maybe Entra is important for them... Just my speculations.
Thanks a lot for the other interesting stuff about Orlanthi.
Jerome
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