>Joerg Baumgartner:
>>>I thought the Aramites were descended from Heortlings rather
>>>than Wenelians? They don't worship the Storm Boar but rather
>>>Gouger the God Pig, the founder Aram-Ya-udram and a Darkness
>>>Demon.
>>The information on Dawn Age humans I have seen shows them as
>>non-Heortling.
>I said they were descended from Heortlings, not that they were
>Heortlings.
To be nitpicky, the formation of the Heortlings and the presence of Aram are contemporary. I don't deny that a Vingkotling background is possible, but any other Dureving (or whichever Orlanthi) male storm tradition is as possible.
>>They worshipped the God Pig as son of the earth mother. Now Orlanth can
>>be worshipped as son of the earth mother, or at least mountain mother
>>who conveys earth sovereignty.
>But the God Pig does not convey Storm Powers whereas the Wenelian
>Orlanth does.
And Greymane's lion god does as well, whereas the original Basmol of Seshnela was comparatively weak in that department. Orlanth has adopted other foreign entities as subcults as well - Mastakos, Yavor Lightning, to name two Heortling examples.
>>How many hunter gatherer cultures
>>worshipping swine, an earth mother who manifests as swine, and a
>>nobility which rides on tuskers would you expect in a comparatively
>>small area?
>The Arimites
Tarshites? ;-)
>are not Hunter-gatherers but rather Pastoralists
Now. I was talking about the Silver Age/Dawn situation which had even Heortling tribes as hunter-gatherers.
>and their pigs (Sus paracaraballus) are significantly different
>from those of the Wenelians (Sus scrofa) or the Mraloti (Sus
>Mraloti). The Wenelians practice agriculture as well as
>pig-farming.
I guess we can agree that for a human culture, the Aramites have undergone some drastic changes from their earlier traditions.
>The Aramites worship no Earth Mother but Gouger, Aram-ya-Udram
>and the unnamed Darkness Demon. The Wenelians worship Ernalda
>and Entra who is unknown to the Aramites.
The Aramites have changed their allegiance during the Darkness/Silver Age to Aram's special magics. Still, a change from a Wenelian-related, swine-loving culture would be less far than from a Vingkotling culture.
>All Aramites ride upon tuskers, not just the nobility. I have
>never heard of Wenelian pig-riders before.
This is a Dawn reference, and the breed seems to have disappeared. Possibly related to Gouger's demise.
>Lastly there is the time difference: The Aramites were
>founded in the Silver Age (Aram-Ya-Udram is a Hero of that
>Age) while the Wenelians were known in Vingkotling times.
Which is my point, really - Aram bound the demon, and a group of swine people followed his lead while Heort managed to gather the remnants of the Vingkotlings into the Heortling people.
Peter
>[on the breakup of the broken council]
> The first to go were the trolls. They disappeared like
> shadows before the Sun, but this is what they have always
> done, and the leaders were ready for it. After they left
> there was a whole tribe of humans in their place who
> worshipped the Darkness, and who ate raw meat and did other
> disgusting things to prove they were troll-worthy.
> Lords of Terror p16
>There's only two known peoples that fit the description and Greg
>has said the Arimites didn't replace the trolls.
What about the Spolites? They are no further from Dorastor than the Kitori, and possibly friendlier. Or what's the deal about Ebon City?
Heck, even the Alkothi fit much of this troll-worthiness.
David Cake:
>>I can't imagine them (or the OOO) being any more keen on creating a
>>god of Light than the Uz were.
Peter:
>The aim of the God Project was not to create a God of Light nor
>did the Uz withdraw because of that reason.
The growing influence of Light certainly was one of the reasons the trolls withdrew, though as certainly not the only one. The handling of magical resources was another problem which must have concerned the trolls almost as much as it did the Heortlings.
David Cake:
>>At the time of the Second Council I still had them dwelling
>>on the Shadow Plateau, and close allies of the OOO, so I figured >>they
>>were on his side.
Peter:
>That's what the Broken Council Guidebook says. But Shannon's history adds
>some complications:
>- in 161, the Kitori betrayed the OOO by accepting Zorak
>Zoran rather than Argan Argar.
Still, they act as the OOO's foremost fighters against Palangio, led by Varonal Zor.
>- the tribe is refounded around 500 or so and settles in
>the Troll Woods, implying that it had been wiped out during
>the War.
Shannon wrote that the tribe was dispersed and had lost its unity. However, the re-founder, who claims descent from Varonal Zor (thereby from Varzor Kitor as well) manages to gather the remnants of the Kitori humans and reform them into a tribe.
>If the tribe had been dwelling on the Shadow Plateau then
>as the BCG says, then it shouldn't have been exterminated.
Total extermination didn't occur, but for a while the Kitori bore the brunt of the fight against Palangio, and this would have killed all their leaders and practically all of their fighters. The pityful remaining people couldn't play much of an active role, but this doesn't mean total genocide.
>Yes, Voronal Zor, the Head-honcho, is described as fighting
>on the troll side but the rest of the Kitori is not mentioned
>and he is not invoked when the tribe is refounded. So
>something funny is going on.
Varonal Zor is named as ancestor of the refounder, not (just) Varzor Kitor. I looked twice when I read that because when I started my research I too had the impression that the Kitori had remained on the project.
David Cake:
>>The queens lovers are important because the Kitori do not
>>practice miscegenation, so the marriage of the kings and queens is
>>symbolic.
Peter:
>My view was that the Kings are the Queen's Lovers.
Since troll females rely on the number of healthy offspring for status, I find it unlikely that a queen should choose a puny human as father of her daughters.
>I don't
>think for a barbarous tribe such as the Kitori that they
>would be satisfied with "symbolic" marriages. Methinks
>they doth protest too much when they claim not to practice
>miscegenation.
"Oh, they don't, they just reenact that start of the Aroka Quest where Orlanth meets Dark Woman and begets the Darkwind." Whatever happens in ritual or completely on the Other Side does not follow ordinary law or custom. Incest, bestiality, all these are meaningless to deities or those who embody them. The Heortlings lincense quite a bit of otherwise immoral behavior in Nandan rites. If the chieftain has to perform a rite involving reproduction, and the only priestess available to play the mother part is his daughter, so be it. I suppose that the Heortlings will look for non-kin replacements where possible, but there are also cases where ordinary morality has been ignored. Who did the kids of Arim marry?
Greg Stafford
>Concerning the Kitori:
>>>Clans are either troll or human, not mixed,
>The Kitori actually defy all convention, and are:
>neither troll nor human, and
>both troll and human.
>OOO was this way too.
>I regret I have no time now to explain this.
We can try and find out at Tentacles, then...
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