Me:
>>I see your point and agree from a mainstream Malkion PoV. But the
>>Brithini don't believe this.
>Which makes little difference. The Zzaburi are not the sole
>arbiters of what is logical and what is subjective in glorantha.
>I'm not going to label the Malkioni as unlogical and subjective
>merely on the Brithini say-so.
I just meant the Brithini would do so, and tried to figure out what kind of students at the SCU would listen to those Zzaburi's ramblings (btw, the School of Comparative Theology is a great idea). When earlier i said about other Malkioni being unlogical and subjective, it was implicitly from a biased PoV. Of course i'm not implying that the Brithini way is closer to the truth, just that this is a theory that some people may have in Glorantha. Sorry if it was unclear. Actually i wasn't thinking so much about it when i wrote it.
>>They didn't believe Malkion when he said that the
>>changes Glorantha underwent induced new postulates.
>
>And the Malkioni say they did so out of pride, arrogance and
>a lack of empathy for their fellow man. Makes a better
>story than the Brithini "We alone have kept to the path
>of true logic", doesn't it?
It does for sure. That's why no one want to play a Brithini game!
Joerg Baumgartner on logic:
>The trouble with logic is that it can clearly map whether the
>conclusions made from basic axioms are conclusive, but that an axiom
>cannot be analyzed with pure logic. "There is no evil" is as
>unproveable/denyable as is "Evil is a cosmic force". "There is no evil
>because..." is subject to logical analysis, but this analysis will only be
>applied to "because...".
So if "because..." is an axiom the logical analysis stops here? What about such basic axioms as "If two straight lines are parallel..." They are unproveable despite being pretty obvious and actually observable. The Malkioni's axioms are philosophical, magical and mythical rather than mathematical, but surely they tend to be validated by observation too. As God himself is Invisible and unreachable, observation is possible only through the study of nature's laws (which is the various sorcery schools' province) and the study of the Saints and Prophets' lifes (which is the church's province). The Saints and Prophets' lifes are known to be revelations of the Divine mostly because of miracles.
Frx, in the HtWwO Rokari writeup, when Rokar was burnt, people actually saw him ascend to Solace, didn't they? Probably there were lots of visual effects, with coloured light and a feeling of awe. That's why the philosophy of Realism spread so quickly in Seshnela after this, helped by Mardron's proselytizing and Bailife's slicing heretical heads. Before Saint Rokar's revelations was a time of anarchy following to the Godlearner's demise, because people didn't know what to believe: the destruction of Seshnela and the Middle Sea Empire showed that the Godlearners were wrong. Of course, the assumption that Rokar's ascension to Solace showed he was true is based on the postulate that only the righteous go to Solace, which has been shared by all Malkioni since Malkion's revelation and ascension to Solace.
I suppose some Godlearners were aware that basic axioms were unprovable, and messed up a lot with Glorantha's axioms as to devise powerful spells and heroquests and Flying Pig Gods. 'Hmm. Let the others play with the Monomyth and see what's going to happen if i use this axiom instead of this one. After all, you can't prove which is true'. This realization was lost to Malkiondom with many other things when the Cosmos set things back in proper order.
Performing sorcery may be related to this too, though the modern Malkioni don't really comprehend it anymore. Not merely observing, the sorcerer is changing the laws of nature in a limited area. I don't feel bold enough to develop further :)
Peter Metcalfe:
>>>If they sacrifice to gods, then they are engaging in theism.
Me:
>>But of course that's still henotheism.
>No, it's not. Henotheism has two meanings, neither which
>describe what is happening here (the general sense is
>mixing worship of Malkion with the Pagan Gods, while the
>Glorantha sense is the Henotheist Church). Henotheists
>may sacrifice to gods for affinities but that is an act of
>theism indistinguishable from what the Orlanthi or the
>Pelorians do.
Hmm, yes. I'm not accurate enough with words. Sacrificing to Gods isn't henotheism, but generally mixing worship of Malkion with the Pagan Gods, even if you sacrifice in the process, is. BTW, in Glorantha, 'Henotheist' originally described the Church founded by Surantyr, whereas the other churches were called 'Stygian' though pejorative it is in certain mouths.
>Just a nitpick: Illuminated Arkat is a slander. Arkat does
>teach some form of mystical awareness but it is not the same
>as Nysaloran Illumination (or perhaps the complete opposite).
Useful nitpick.
On Destroyers:
>IMO they would destroy anything not in their own social group. Which
>usually means they prefer everything beyond the borders of their city
>state to be a blackened ruin.
Wise philosophy. You never know what your neighbour is doing in his cellar. Does this mean that they have privileged ties within their own city, or are they planning to destroy it (and themselves too) once the world is finished, so that the job be complete?
Interesting stuff by Trotsky too on the SGU schools of thought. Thanks.
Jerome
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