From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:08:24 +1200

Olli Kantola:

>Me>A difference of opinion about Uleria is hardly a
>"great"difference. >What's being described here is the difference in
>attitudes between >conservative rural folk and the more tolerant city folk.

>If, as you say, rural folks truly think that Uleria is a demon (being from
>the underworld, enemy god or servant of the Predark?), then they would
>think that city folk were wicked demon worshippers.

There is a big difference between "Uleria is worshipped in the City" and "All City Folk are wicked because they worship Uleria". Take a parallel example: if Kyger Litor was worshipped in Bold - -home, would you infer that all inhabitants of Boldhome are demon-worshipping Kyger Litor worshippers?

>Do the clansmen stage
>crusades to the towns every now and then?

Do farmers, where you live, stage crusades into the city to cleanse out the corruption there? No. The same applies for Sartar and the City.

>What a strange Sartar this has become with strange, eccentric and
>dangerous people leading clans and tribes and cities populated by demon

The only strangeness comes from your distorted understanding of what other people actually said.

> >Ernalda's rites work just as well in the city as in the country.The
> >communal magic of Uleria is used for orgies (Community spell:

>That is one thing that Ulerian magic can be used to, does that exclude
>some other aspect of love from the powers of the Goddess of Love?

Well, to dig up the original context of this thread, the point was that the Orlanthi would not need to use Uleria for community - -strengthening or fertility purposes because Ernalda's magics work quite fine in the city. So why would the Orlanthi need to make a change from the Ernalda that they know to the whore Uleria?

>She can do her thing in the cities, but she certainly has her

>1. Ancestors.
>Ancestors of citizens are often a very mixed bunch. Ancestors from
>different cultures, cults and nations greate a very fuzzy whole. IMO they
>don't have as much power as ancestors of normal clans.

I don't see anything to suggest that the city worship of ancestors will be weaker than the standard Orlanthi ancestors. In any case, Ancestors aren't known for their individuality (TR p94), so the differing backgrounds is a red herring.

>I think that matchmaking relies partly on
>consulting the ancestors of two clans wether the pair is a good match.

The name of the feat actually is "Ask Ancestors for Blessing", not "Divine whether Marriage is acceptable to the Ancestors".

>2. Assessing Boys and Girls. Velas magic seems to require (work better on
>if there is a) connection to the gods of girls and boys. Voria and

It does? Nothing is said about Voria or Voriof in the entire description of Vela.

>Somehow I don't see the small people of the cities "following" the
>goddess of Flowers of the Shephard, since this is the role that
>rural children play.

So spring festivities are not celebrated in the city because only rural people would be interested in them? I don't think so.

> >About 10% of all Sartarites live in the cities and going bymodern
> >examples (with a caveat of different social mores), only about 5% of
> >those will frequently use prostitutes. Doesn't sound like a quite a big
> >proportion to me.

>Why this is nearly the rest (of Orlanthi all)!!!

No, it is not. 5% of 10% is 0.5% of all Orlanthi in Sartar and nowhere as large as 15%.

>You still seem to equate her worshippers as mere whores...

I am not doing any such thing, I am merely telling you what the _Heortlings_ themselves believe. You still haven't given any reason why the statement of TR p192 is wrong.

>Even in RQ she had every sort of fertility magic available.

No, she didn't. She only had one generic fertility spell.

>You might want to check out the love/fertility question(or
>something) from www.glorantha.com.

That question is written from the God Learner PoV and has little to do with what the _Heortlings_ believe.

> >Guess what Uleria is tainted with? Disorder. That's why Thunder Rebels
> >talks "the wild and breathless passion of the demon Uleria that breaks
> >apart everyone it touches".

>Now you are contradicting yourself. You said that Uleria tames the
>Boggles isn't a Heortling myth and without that myth your claims of
>her disorderiliness are empty.

You might actually want to look up what I did say. I explicitly stated that myth to be an _Orlanthi_ myth and Uleria is _still_ recognized as being tainted with disorder by those cultures that do recognize some positive force in here.

>Also, I don't think that Uleria CAN be corrupted by disorder as she
>is nothing but, the source of and indeed Love/Fertility.

So why is Uleria's High Holy Night in Disorder Week and not Fertility Week?

>As for the nature of Uleria and her priestesses, you can take another look
>at the Tilntae.

Looked at them. There's nothing in there that says they cannot be viewed as demons by the Heortlings.

>"Where a sense of community is weak they will manifest as essence
>to enchance it." I bet that they played a significat part in forming
>wyters for cities.

The Wyter is not formed but summoned from one of the Good Gods and Goddesses. Since Uleria is not one of them, the Tilntae play no part in summoning Heortling wyters. Furthermore, take note of the word "essence": it's referring to a Tilntae in a _sorcerous_ manifestation. Seems very odd for a Heortling community.

>"If a being is lost or lonely they possess him to enable him to find
>love." That translates nicely into matchmaking(!) and certainly doesn't
>sound like demonic possesion, wracking of the body&other such

Being possessed by an otherworldly entity _is_ demonic possession in the eyes of Heortlings and most people. The way to avoid this fate is to marry off your kids as fast as possible...

>And finally:"When a being is childless they may appear physically and
>bring new life to the world." Here the orgies or other ceremonies can help
>those who don't worship Ernalda(or even Ernaldans... Hey extra help is
>always appreciated).

So some godling has just screwed a Heortling's missus and gotten her pregnant. Just what his reputation needs - a real kick to the balls. And on the other side of a coin, the wife isn't going to be very happy if a tilntae provides her hubby with a newborn babe. I hardly think the Heortlings are going to be going down on both knees to Uleria because of this.

>It is fair to say that in Heortling society Ernalda handles all
>things concerned with matchmaking, community and fertility, but
>would it be very Heortling if this would be a Yelmic all?

It would be even less Heortling if Ernalda had to share this role with a known demon.

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