Uleria

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:19:30 +1200


Olli Kantola:

> > There is a big difference between "Uleria is worshipped in the
> > City" and "All City Folk are wicked because they worship Uleria".
> > Take a parallel example: if Kyger Litor was worshipped in Bold
> > - -home, would you infer that all inhabitants of Boldhome are
> > demon-worshipping Kyger Litor worshippers?

>No, but all Torkani (if my memory serves me correctly, they are the
>Darkness worshipping tribe or clan) must be!

So? I'm not talking about the Torkani, I'm talking about the ordinary inhabitants of Boldhome. You inferred that I was saying that _all_ people in the cities were demon-worshippers. You were wrong.

>Kyger Litor is worshipper by
>trolls in Boldhome. If 5% of city folk worships her at regular intervals,
>then she propably is accepted by a quite large portion of citizens.

And my actual argument (that the city folk _tolerate_ Uleria's presence) is completely and utterly wrong for what reason? If you don't have a problem with this, then why are you arguing about it?

> > Do farmers, where you live, stage crusades into the city to cleanse
> > out the corruption there? No. The same applies for Sartar and the
> > City.

>Well, yes, sometimes, but that's not the point.

It _is_ the point. You claim Uleria must be accepted as a legitimate goddess or else she will be hounded from Sartar. I just pointed that there is a plausible social situation in which a despised goddess can still be found in Heortling cities without such things happening.

> > So why would the Orlanthi need to make a change from the Ernalda
> > that they know to the whore Uleria?

>IMO it's no like they are abandoning Ernalda, but supplementing her
>worship with other goddesses.

Why would they need to supplement her worship with other goddesses? She works just _fine_ in the city.

> > >Why this is nearly the rest (of Orlanthi all)!!!

> > No, it is not. 5% of 10% is 0.5% of all Orlanthi in Sartar and
> > nowhere as large as 15%.

>5% of 10% is 5% of the 100% of those who live in the cities. 33%
>of the 15% that is "the rest" in the cities.

FYI the 15% non-conformers do not all live in cities but are found in the Sartarite countryside. And 0.5% divided by 15% is only 3% rather than 33% that you claimed (and how does 33% become "nearly the rest"?).

> > No, she didn't. She only had one generic fertility spell.

>But it was was suitable for almost anything that fertility magic could be
>used for.

No, it wasn't. It could only be used to bless a specific plant while the Ernaldans could bless a whole field. Likewise it couldn't be used to make a plant bear fruit out of season as the Aldryami did, nor could it ensure that a pregnancy had no complications.

> > Furthermore, take
> > note of the word "essence": it's referring to a Tilntae in a
> > _sorcerous_ manifestation. Seems very odd for a Heortling
> > community.

>I am not suggesting that theistic priestesses of Uleria use sorcery.

But you just quoted a section from Anaxial's Roster to show how useful Uleria was for the Heortlings. Given that it refers to sorcerous matters, what you quoted is inappropriate for the Heortlings.

>When I said that priestesses of Uleria have powers like Tilntae I
>am suggesting that they have similar theistic powers.

Since the Tilntae can only use such powers in a sorcerous manner, how could the Ulerians use it theistically? And you've failed to answer why the Heortlings would need the Ulerians to encourage a sense of community when their own wyters does the job.

> > Being possessed by an otherworldly entity _is_ demonic possession
> > in the eyes of Heortlings and most people.

>Using magic to make/engourage people fall in love is not possession.

But using a spirit to cause them to fall in love (which is how Uleria and her Tilntae act) _is_.

>I guess that many sagas have been about love.

This has nothing to do with whether Uleria is an accepted Goddess by the Orlanthi or not. Many songs have been written about the Sun but the Orlanthi are not Yelm worshippers.

>IMO our
>natives can understand that there are love can be lust or in some
>acceptable form. And IMO they aren't that dualistic that they would equate
>Uleria with the former and Ernalda with the last.

Nobody has ever said that the Heortlings hate lust. What has been pointed out time and again is that Uleria has a bad reputation among the Heortlings. Not as bad as Thed, mind you, but still undesirable.

> > So some godling has just screwed a Heortling's missus and gotten
> > her pregnant. Just what his reputation needs - a real kick to

>Rituals that enchance fertility, not replace it.

But you didn't refer to a ritual. You quoted a section from AR about Tilntae which told of how they could bring new life into the world. And besides, why do Heortlings need to go to Uleria when various Ernalda subcults do the job just as well and are more socially acceptable?

> > It would be even less Heortling if Ernalda had to share this
> > role with a known demon.

>That is true, but even if all Heortlings know her as as a demon you have
>to consider this. Zorak Zoran is a known demon, and some clans worship
>even him!

Only the non-Heortling Kitori and possibly the Torkani would do so and the mere fact that they do so, does not improve Zorak Zoran's reputation among any other Heortling one whit.

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