Joerg :
>>Velhara, Lady of the Wild?
>Actually, no.
>Hara - Velhara is mere coincidence, but it's a cool one.
>"Hara" as described in TR & ST.
Which means just about any female deity (well, aspect or subcult of Ernalda) if used in connection with male Orlanth. One reason I brought Velhara up.
>Admittedly, Hara and Velhara must have some shared Wenelian myths.
With the pigs growing fat in the wilds, Velhara or some cognate might be a bountyful acorn mother or similar in addition to the creature of the wild.
>I would probably disagree with several of your other points, and maybe I
>will do so : later.
You're welcome. This topic does require some hammering out...
Jerome Blondel:
>Joerg Baumgartner
>>The Ramali are mentioned as one of the Entruli tribes.
>The Mraloti of Ramalia are children of Mralot, and -are/were- Hsunchen.
All it takes for this result is a Slontos God Learner bent on proving his theory... Adoptions of ancestors and different ancestry are something of a norm for sentient people.
>The Entruli are children of Kethaa and Entru,
land mother and wild man (earth husband)
>and stated to be Hsunchen too,
Where?
>but in case this is true, they don't have the same beast ancestor.
>How the Mraloti may have interacted with the Ramali who gave their name to
>the country is mysterious for me.
The name of the country may have migrated. Dawn Age Heortland for instance was much of Kethaela and Kerofinela and included some parts of Saird; the modern meaning crystallized during the EWF and was solidified after the Dragonkill.
>>Somehow I am astonished that the idea of a similarity between Orlanth the
>>Boar and Mralot due to the conversion efforts of the Lifebringer
>>missionaries should cause so much headache.
>How do the Hsunchen react to other beast-worshippers? I can't think of any
>RW similar cultural clash.
Perhaps because the era of beast totems isn't well documented in history. Glorantha has a few such clashes, most notably the various horse peoples. The Dog People of Saird and Balazar seem to get along without difficulty despite different magic systems.
>>I don't postulate any extant theist Mraloti. I do postulate that whatever
>>theist Mraloti there were now are called Wenelians, and were known as
>>those
>>Entruli the Lifebringers of the early second century contacted.
>The Entruli were probably theist boar-worshippers
Harand was famous for his sow-wife, who probably bears the lineage of Entru and Kethaa, unless Drorgalar already does. I won't speculate about the exact meaning of his epithet, though...
>but different from the Mraloti who IMO were native Ramalians.
The Mraloti may well have been one of the numerous hsunchen (or quasi-hsunchen?) peoples of the region (the various Pralori folk, plus the southeastern Safelster region, and the Basmoli immigrants from Seshnela). Doubtlessly there was a boar spirit to be worshipped or propitiated.
>The connection is probably due to the abundance of pigs in Slontos, but in
>the west it's a pig-spirit whereas in the east it's a pig-god.
The Heortlings have a myth about how Orlanth received the beasts through contests from the father of Beasts, except for the beast men who went to the forests (Orolmarn subcult), and another (the Plundering of Aron) about the Storm Brothers regaining the beasts from the Enchanter. Whatever entities there were in the great western forest, they seem to have taken the beasts from each other.
>Basmoli origin
>>Peter:
>>>>>The [Basmoli] came from Pamaltela, not Seshnela.
>It makes me wonder: Are the Basmoli Agimori-type? I can't picture the
>Pamaltelan lion-hsunchen as Wererans...
For some reason, the Hsunchen human form corresponds to the racial type of the neighbouring humans, although certain features like hair coloration or density, stature or facial shape may carry over from the beast form. Thus the Shan Shan hsunchen are of the Kralori race, the western Genertelan hsunchen are of the Wareran race, and the Pamaltelan hsunchen are of the Agimori race - at least in appearance.
>I like the cannibal Blue Lion idea, it's quite fun. OTOH i think Basmol
>traveled throughout southern Genertela and bred with a few different
>entities. I godlearnerishly think he originally came from Prax and the
>Praxian Basmoli are descendants of the black immigrants. Then he traveled
>through northern Slontos and begat one or several clans of Basmoli, before
>heading for Seshnela. After this he wandered throughout his new territory,
>but it was really vast even for the Big Lion and other people came to drive
>him off and do unpleasant things to his skin and children.
KoDP states quite clearly that the Vingkotlings took an exception to lion-people traversing their territory. The question about ancient enemies features a Basmoli fighting scene.
About the race of the human form of Hsunchen: I wonder whether this form changes in a single person when he or she changs back from beast form to human form in a different racial context (say a Sofali from Trowjang off the Pamaltelan coast, or a Shan Shan Damali in Pralorela), presuming that the same subspecies of beast exists in both places.
In Prax, the "matrix" for the human form seems to be the Golden Age folk (the Beast Riders were immigrants themselves, and with their strong pygmy portion aren't exactly all Warerans), who probably were related to the On Jorri or Vingkot's Summer Wife. Therefore I think that they appear as Warerans.
>Another possibly which doesn't exclude the first is that a few clans of
>Pendali refugees from Basim crossed the Mislari Mountains through the
>legendary Pass.
Or just around the upper slopes which they haunted anyway.
>The nature of the entities whom the Lion god bred with influenced the
>nature
>of his descendants, so the Pendali were Wereran and possibly socially
>advanced, building cities even though they let their subjects toil the
>earth.
Pendali agriculture appears to be a fact, but hasn't been specified anywhere I can recall. I find cities of hunter gatherers hard to imagine, though.
The people of Basim herd goats, so they aren't entirely a Hsunchen hunter/gatherer culture. They might have brought these from Seshnela (the sad story of their emigration doesn't mention them), or tamed them in the Mislari mountains.
>IMG Bastis is the name of the local Trader Prince family and i've just had
>that silly idea that they may be a successful Drom family with ancestors
>from Basim, and weird lion worshippers :)
While I don't really care who exactly the Trader Prince lords are (isn't Drom in Helby, thus horse people territory?), I think that attitude will be shared by roaming hunting prides of Basmoli. The forested southern slopes of the Mislari mountains are thinly settled and ought to resemble their familiar forested hunting grounds of Dawn Age Seshnela or Basim. The abundance of pigs to hunt doesn't hurt, either.
A ruling family with some degree of kinship might have an advantage hiring Basmoli mercenaris from Basim.
>Survival
>>IMO several Dureving peoples survived by using Hsunchen methods, retaining
>>only a shred of their Orlanthi ways. Their Hsunchen magic may have been
>>more difficult but one does what one must to survive.
>Yea! assuming the ways of animals may be an excellent way to survive.
>Indeed
>some forlorn people may have turned back to the animal folk for help, or
>the
>animals volunteered to help them. Maybe the Mraloti helped the Harandings
>and tried to show them how to be proper pigs.
The Harandings and Vathmai of Esrolia appear to have been part of the Silver Age Unity folk, unlike most of their cousins in the west. The tribes further west may well have shed more of their Orlanthi nature during the Darkness.
>Then at the Dawn or during the
>Silver Age, Orlanth came back from the LBQ, and now he was a pig. (Well,
>from their POV and with twisted Godtime rationale, he had always been.)
>After that 'betrayal' the Mraloti turned their back on them.
Their strange, difficult spirits (if they were misappliedly contacted deities) would have been a source for some rivalry anyway. Orlanthi and presumably other Gloranthans resemble small boys outmatching each other in "my father is stronger than yours" contests. Boasts will lead to magical contests, provided there is contact.
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #325
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