>>Where did you find this temporal sequence?
>It's inferred from the fact that there are no Mraloti in
>Daran and the Mraloti now live in Ramalia where they were not
>mentioned at the time of the Broken Council.
Why not during the start of the Bright Empire? The Enerali seem to have adopted Orlanth and Ernalda during this time, too.
>>Several Vingkotling groups managed to lose hold on Orlanth.
>Which ones?
Best known are the Kodigvari, whose successors' hold on Orlanth is slight, to say the least. Quite a few of the starlight tribes disappeared, and not necessarily all of them into chaos or troll maws. The Jorganostelli successors (such as Jarani Whitetop's group) seem to have dispersed.
>>>But postulating theist Mraloti at any time is an error. The
>>>Mraloti are and have always been animists.
>>What happened to those remaining in Safelster, e.g. during the Dark
>>Empire?
>They converted and lost their Mraloti ways (except through the
>ancient beasts society).
If 6 to 12 centuries since the conversion, that means 24 to 60 generations, retain as much as the Ancient Beast society, how did life look like when the conversion was an ongoing process (if not a process for individuals but for their society)?
>>And now all non-ruling Ramalians are treated as Mraloti in the
>>descriptions. No chance that some of them are/have been Ramali?
>Look at the Player's Book: Genertela. If there had been Ramali
>farmers, they would still be worshipping Orlanth.
Players' Book: Genertela has no Pelaskite ("islander") fisherfolk in Heortland or Malkioni in Nochet, either, yet they exist. It is a lousy source on minorities (meaning anything outside a Lunar all).
>The possibility
>that the rulers are Ramali descendents (converted to Malkionism)
>is more plausible IMO.
That's a possibility I don't doubt - a mixed ancestry of Ramali (or other 1st/2nd Age coastal Entruli) nobility and overseas Malkioni.
>>Urox is a bad role model for an entire society.
>There are Uroxi tribes mentioned in the Fortunate Succession.
>They don't have a problem with the bad role model (although
>everybody around them does).
<g> They tend to be outmatched economically when raiding doesn't provide sufficient income (and Uroxi raids are more likely to cause damage than to provide booty).
>>These peoples are called Orlanthi because Orlanth embodies the
>>society's mores
>The Bemuri are nowhere described as Orlanthi.
Correct. After 360, they have disappeared from the maps, instead we hear of East Ralian Orlanthi faithful to the Council in a region never occupied by Vustrians around 430.
>The people in Keanos are described as Orlanthi but we do not know the
>proportion of Uroxi among them.
Correct. However, the Uroxi would occupy the niche Humakti occupy elsewhere (especially among Enerali-descended Orlanthi, including the Vustri). By the time Arkat joins the cult of Humakt, Humakt (Humath?) as societal god cannot have functioned any more.
>>>But since they have converted from animism to theism, no such
>>>retention [of initiatory routine] is possible.
>>Circular argumentation.
>No, it's not. The initiatory route of the animists and theists
>visits the spirit world and the god plane respectively.
I was talking about Otherworld perception (how do we reach Orlanth's stead? Do the Wenelians come as Pigs in Air?). Of course the Otherworld visited will change, but the East Ralians don't necessarily fly into Orlanth's stead like the Heortlings do.
>>"All" I want is a difference between the East Wilds Orlanth worship from
>>other Orlanthi based on their hsunchen history. It would be the logical
>>criterion for their difference, no?
>So do I. But the suggestions you make (Orlanth is a cattle god
>in Keanos) are far too extreme IMO.
I envisioned Orlanth as bull-flavoured storm god among the former Bemuri. A bull's fertility rather than a ram's or an alynx's. A different reaction to challenges, possibly a tradition of head butting. Different marriage forms (polygyny? bachelor groups?) along with normal forms. And a distinct speciality subcult providing a "be a bull" affinity, possibly shared with the Urox cult.
>>Me>If the practices were misapplied, then their
>>>worshippers would have never survived the Great Darkness.
>>Misapplied worship works. It works better than correct worship to dead
>>and unresponsive deities.
>"Our normal rites to Orlanth don't work because he is dead and/or
>unresponsive. So we Wenelians use hsunchen magics to contact him
>and they work?"
Yes. This works when the boar subcult entity is a separate Thunder Brother, and when the majority of other helpful otherworld entities is from the spirit world.
>>Isn't I Fought We Won what sets the Heortlings apart from the other
>>Orlanthi?
>No. Heort is worshipped among the Fronelan Orlanthi (AR p73).
In the same way he is not directly worshipped among the Heortlings, or as another divine hero similar to Alakoring or Jarani? The latter wouldn't surprise me, since Talor brought Heortlings to Fronela, and myths tend to be retroactively inclusive. If anything, I'm a bit puzzled that Yinkin is as important in Fronela as in Kerofinela. Maybe the myth read "Resant took the best shape of all, the bear" in the original Jonating version, leaving Odayla with the alynx shape?
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #331
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