Still Beast Form Orlanthi.

From: Joerg Baumgartner <>
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:59:09 +0000

Peter Metcalfe replying to me:

>>I envisioned Orlanth as bull-flavoured storm god among the >>former Bemuri.

> If anybody should be a bull, it is Urox who already comes
> with Bull associations. Why are the Bemuri going to force
> Orlanth into the risible role of a Bull when they can take
> on the worship of Urox?

At least that Urox would be a lot more Orlanthish than Heortling Urox, with aspects of a cultural deity - and that's somehow outside of his normal behaviour. The Orlanthi have myths about Orlanth(dar) the chief and Elmal ruling as his thane. They don't have myths about Urox leading, except against chaos.

> This has an added bonus that Urox
> is more receptive to animistic traditions than Orlanth.

IMO Urox in his role as destroyer of Chaos is what transcends the borders of the worlds.

>>A bull's fertility rather than a ram's or an alynx's.

> Orlanth is not worshipped as a ram or an alynx anywhere
> as yet. The Ram is associated with Heler or Voriof

Or Orolmarn, or Pelorian Erlandus. The Lastralgortelli defeat has been attributed to Urvairinus.

> Orlanth in the lands
> of the Talastings looks pretty much like Orlanth in
> Heortland or Lankst.

Due to intensive cultural exchange, voluntary or by force.

Apart from background info in the Broken Council freeform I haven't seen anything on the origin of Talastings or Anadiki. The Sylilans are mentioned as Iron Helerings, overcome by the Glacier.

> The Boar Orlanth of the Wenelians
> is so described because he is an unusual form of Orlanth

Though not the only such. Pelorian myth has various such forms.

> and not that Orlanth normally takes the
> form of animals outside Heortling myth.

The association of Orlanth with various beasts is present even in Heortling myth. Check Orolmarn in Thunder Rebels (p.235):

: One time, the Lord of Beasts challenged Orlanth to a series 
: of contests. The Lord of Beasts placed as his wager his own 
: children. Orlanth called himself Orolmarn when he accepted the 
: challenge and placed as his wager his son Voriof, the Great Ram.

Ok, so this is Voriof as the Ram (who seems to be absent as a keyword in both Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe), but still Orlanth as father of the Ram.

: Although Orlanth is now the Lord of Beasts, Orolmarn is his name as : the herdsman for all of these animals, not just his own sheep.

While Peter probably will deny this, this reinforces my impression that the Vingkotlings saw themselves as the Ram Orlanthi.

Heort (with his obscure stag background) might have been more inclusive.

What do we know about the period of the Hidden Kings? Vingkotlings survived by taking beast shape. When Heort returned from the Lawstaff quest, he brought them the news how to worship Orlanth. All of them?

>>>It's inferred from the fact that there are no Mraloti in
>>>Daran and the Mraloti now live in Ramalia where they were not
>>>mentioned at the time of the Broken Council.

>>Why not during the start of the Bright Empire?

> Which is when?

375 to about 400 ST.

> More importantly there's nothing to show that
> the Bright Empire even ruled this region (FS Map p21) during
> its long life.

Kaxtorplose was right in the middle of the Bright Empire's occupation, and judging from the Second Age map in Uz Lore not at all coastal. This does indicate that Palangio's armies occupied the land. Whether this means the Bright Empire ruled it one may argue.

>>The Enerali seem to have
>>adopted Orlanth and Ernalda during this time, too.

> I really don't see the evidence for the Enerali becoming Orlanthi
> at this time (or any other time).

Which is one of the problems trying to discuss this.

The Vustri were the first Enerali group to become Orlanthi. The Korioni king Maklaman Ironblade was the most important native ally of Arkat when he took his crusade beyond Tanisor. The Seshnegi report this as Arkat's alliance with the hill barbarians. Arkat allied with Orlanthi who opposed the Bright Empire. Other than the distant and fairly shattered Vustri, who were these Orlanthi? The Lankst settlers from Dorastor, whose land the council had taken from the Zebra folk and the Vustri?

> There's quite a disparity between what you claim and
> the actual evidence for your claim (that other Orlanthi groups
> did what you allege the Wenelians to have done).

That's because the successors of the Jorganostelli tribe haven't been published, except the Stravuli who did maintain Orlanth worship. They were just one group.

>>>Look at the Player's Book: Genertela. If there had been Ramali >>>farmers, they would still be worshipping Orlanth.

>>Players' Book: Genertela has no Pelaskite ("islander") fisherfolk in >>Heortland or Malkioni in Nochet, either, yet they exist.

> Well since there is no specific regional character generation
> system for either Nochet or Heortland as opposed to a _specific_
> table for Ramalia, the argument against the lack of any mention
> for Ramalian Orlanthi is decidely shakey.

It is as specific a source about Caladraland (which according to these standards has Orlanthi farmers), Melib (just like theocratic Teshnos) or Ygg's Isles (Orlanth pantheon). The Rightarm Islanders are absent in the Manirian population table as well, although there are 40,000 Grazers mentioned. Not the best source to demonstrate an absence.

>>I was talking about Otherworld perception (how do we reach Orlanth's >>stead? Do the Wenelians come as Pigs in Air?).

> Orlanth's stead lies entirely on the God Plane. It is not a
> matter of perception but a real and verifiable fact.

The node of St. Aeolus ultimately leads there, too.

> Some
> parts of the Storm Realm are matters of perception but not
> all of them. Hence the Orlanthi cannot visit Orlanth's realm
> in the Spirit Plane.

Theist Orlanthi can't.

But animist Orlanthi can, from the Spirit Plane, passing a suitable (additional) barrier. Penalties apply (for a friendly, alien Otherworld).

> But the normal rites to Orlanth are the correct rites to use.

They didn't work any more. People were dying, so they had to find another way.

> So why should the _wrong_ rites be any better when Orlanth is
> "dead and/or unresponsive"?

How can rites which yield results be wrong? IMO even the Vingkotlings fell back to this in the time of the Hidden Kings.

>>>No. Heort is worshipped among the Fronelan Orlanthi (AR p73).

>>In the same way he is not directly worshipped among the Heortlings, >>or as another divine hero similar to Alakoring or Jarani?

> Why should it matter? He is prominent in their mythology and the
> only plausible reason is his role in the I Fought We Won.

Does this mean they have the Second Son mystery, or does this mean "he conquered Chaos"? Do the Jonatings share the IFWW mystery?

>>The latter wouldn't
>>surprise me, since Talor brought Heortlings to Fronela,

> Did he?

A group of Harmast's companions, which ended up in Oranor IIRC, not in Galastar.

> So why do the Fronelan Orlanthi worship the Lifebringers
> and not the Lightbringers (Glorantha: Intro p72)?

That's Galastar and the Janube Valley. Are they the ones who have the Logic Tribe myth?

>>If anything, I'm a bit puzzled that Yinkin is as important in >>Fronela as in Kerofinela.

> Bobcat Hsunchen live in Fronela and some who converted to
> Orlanthi ways would want a cat god to worship/

A former enemy god with a myth how they became enemies?

That would be like Mraloti converting to Orlanth the Boar?

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