> > Predark _before chaos_
> >- - before chaos in the Unholy Trio, Wakhboth, Kajabor sense anyway.
>
> The Orlanthi term for Chaos _is_ Predark. See the definitions
> in Thunder Rebels p10.
Certainly. And in the specific case of the Unholy Trio, Wakboth, and Kajabor there can be no meaningful distiction between the terms Predark and Chaos.
However, it's worth pointing out that some VERY obscure Orlanthi literature *might* make some sort of distinction between Predark and Chaos in the way that Topi suggests : the oldest and most abstract cosmogonic staves known to the knowledge cult. But even in these, the distinction between poetic frenzy, poetic licence and mythology would be quite blurred, and the Predark only suggested as distinct from Chaos (and then only implicitly, or even without any original intention to make that distinction) as a living anti-symbol of the incomprehensible power of Creation itself (Glorantha creating and separating Herself from the Predark as an unfathomable Mystery) ; if you were an Orlanthi, you would literally need to be *insane* to consider such ideas as a valid mythic basis for heroquesting in the gods' world or any kind of religious ceremony or any other conceivable purpose in Orlanthi society... Were you to attempt any of these, you could not continue to be an Orlanthi, practically by definition.
Among orthodox non-lunarised Heortlings, there might something like a dozen or half Lhankor Mhy specialists, perhaps one or two of the Argraths, and an illuminated Uroxi or two in the whole of Dragon Pass who might understand such an excruciating distinction with any true insight whatsoever ; AND they would shut up about it, if they did.
Really, the only entities (known to the Orlanthi) I can think of offhand where the distinction *might* be given some sort of meaning by such unusual and unlikely characters (and it COULDN'T possibly ever become meaningful for any normal person, or even any normal Hero) would be Death (as opposed to Humakt, and even Kargan Tor ; and as a pre-cosmic but eminently non-chaotic force), Uleria (and only if one were to consider that she transcended the Predark in exactly the same way that Glorantha did, or that she IS that transcendance : both ideas being fairly doubtful, but not necessarily false), and Glorantha herself. In other words, the question is so academic as to have no meaning whatsoever (and the Orlanthi have no academics per se). Even Kajabor is not Predark in the sense you suggest : it is simply the antithesis of Gloranthan essence, and would immediately cease to exist if Glorantha were ever annihilated.
Anything else about a non-chaotic "Predark" is just evil Lunar propaganda/transcendant Lunar Truth and/or God Learner lies and/or extremely dubious Glorantha Digest speculation.
It's probably worth pointing out that even the God Learners would have treated such a distinction between Predark and Chaos with *great* suspicion, and would probably have considered the notion as almost pure blasphemy (as denying the preeminence of God within and without all other essences, entities and ideas). Instead, they oppose Cosmos to Chaos.
The only people in the whole of Glorantha who may, perhaps, have put such notions into practice would be the Outer Atomic Explorers. There is a deep (and amusing) paradox in the concept of Outer Atomic Exploration.
The non-Chaotic Predark that you suggest is actually the Realm of raw, transcendant, and immaterial Possibility (similar to the "Immateria" in Alan Moore's Promethea). The only Gloranthan humans who come at all close to this very pure concept (AFAIK) are some of the Eastern mystics ; the Dreamers among them, perhaps. BUT these people normally have no concept of "Predark" ; indeed it is probably 100% incompatible with the foundations of their religions.
Ideally, Immaterial Possibility should not be confused with anything from God Learnerism, *deep* Orlanthi cosmogony, or even Lunar transcendance : although some elements from the Realm of Possibility are found in each, if one looks carefully enough (most easily found in Lunar transcendance), and provided one already knows something about that Realm. But (for instance) all normal, good, and orthodox Orlanthi magical practices are *diametrically* opposed to such procedures (despite the fact that HW gameplay uses them extensively).
Isn't this one of those things that the Hero Wars are about ?
The Hero Wars are between Existence, Entropy, and Possibility ? ;-)
Julian Lord
PS Oh God, getting *deep* again : better stop !!!
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