me:
>> I think you're off base here -- Humakt is a special case in the
>> sense that He is neither in the World, the Underworld, or the Other Worlds,
>> but between them. I think he can be called into any of them (by Heroquests,
>> chiefly), but this puts a strain on everything around it. Humakt is the
>> door; he's not "in" any room.
>
>I really don't know, and I've been pondering this for a while. The Sword
>Death is
>certainly as you suggest, but then much depends on who's wielding it.
>Orlanth ?
>Humakt ? Trickster ? I tend to imagine Humakt wielding Death, with one
>foot in
>each world and the Sword as the Dividing Line.
Yes. I've been thinking about this a lot over the last few days -- perhaps Humakt shouldn't be seen as Death but as the Guardian of Death, the guy who makes sure that Death gets used properly. After all, Humakt gets Death, loses Death, uses Death, gets Death back.... (It's one of those god meets Death, god loses Death, god gets Death back tearjerkers...). The Orlanthi call Humakt Death, but they also show Death as Orlanth's Sword, something Eurmal can steal, etc. Orlanthi love analogy and kennings; surely that is reflected in their iconography....
>Whatever. There must be *many* local interpretations of the core myths.
Yes and yes again. For example, I have little idea how the Carmanians see Humakt -- I seem to remember reading somewhere that they don't care about the "honor" aspect at all -- Humakt's Truth is, for them, the Truth of the Grave. Maybe they see Humakt as the guy who uses Death against the Lie....
Then Peter Metcalfe weighs in:
>> Here I thought Shargash killed him, just like he killed everything
>>else before he killed himself (or let himself die, because there was
>>nothing left to kill).
>
>You are mixing mythologies which makes your conclusion flawed.
>Humakt and Shargash come from separate cultures and do not
>interact in the world-destroying stage. If you want a God
>Learned explanation for this, you can blame it on the
>disintegrating world.
Well, if a Dara Happan was asked who killed Humakt, wouldn't he say Shargash? A Lunar asked the same question might suggest that Humakt's Unhealed Nature killed Him (she'd suggest it from a safe diistance). A Brithini would just think it was a stupid question....
me:
>>I think part of being a greater god is having many
>>aspects and being able to do many things -- Orlanth kills and
>>heals, herds and farms, dispenses justice and causes discord.
>
>Under another definition, a greater god was one that owned a
>rune (thus Uleria for love, Orlanth for air). Humakt certainly
>fulfills this criteria with his death rune ownership.
Well, does that definition have any teeth anymore? Pretty much every god and hero owns their own rune now. There's the Big Ones (Polarities, Movements, Forms, etc (HW, p.161-162)), but does anyone "own" them in the Gods of Glorantha sense? Besides, Chalana Arroy "owns" a rune and she isn't a Great God. Mastakos owns a rune, and he's a subcult.
>>Shargash represents both death and life.
>
>Shargash does not represent life. His Death is necessary for
>Life to exist but that is different.
According to Enclosure 1 (as far as I know the best source of information on Shargash to date), Shargash, as Alkor, is "husband to Oslira and father of all the peoples of Alkoth" (Enclosure 1, p. 35). One of his Secret Names is "Stick and Stone -- Shargash holds the power of fertility, just as new green shoots sprout after a brushfire." (ibid., p.36). For the people of Alkoth, it seems, Shargash is the god of both Life and Death. Outside of Alkoth, Shargash is worshipped in fewer forms, all (I assume) concerned with violence. In my reasoning (which could be wrong), this makes Shargash a Great God in Alkoth but not elsewhere. It's similar to the way that Maran Gor is a fairly simple minor god in Sartar, but a Great God in Tarsh. Orlanth, I assume, is not a Great God in Esrolia, where his sons are worshipped separately, and he is only one of Ernalda's Husbands.
Meanwhile, Simon Hibbs says:
>Isn't Yelm a greater god? I think Uleria is too. They aren't
>swiss-army-knife deities either.
Yelm is; he is the Sun, the Holder of Justice (maybe its source), the God of Rulers, the Allfather, Bringer of Fertility (you don't think it's those yucky women, do you?), etc. The difference between Yelm and Orlanth is that Orlanth is worshipped directly by the majority of his followers, where Yelm is worshipped directly only by some of the Nobility; the rest of the people honor Him but aren't worthy to directly worship Him. It's possible that we'll see an Orlanth-style write-up for Yelm, with various aspects: Yelm the Warrior (Urvairinus, Yelmalio, Saggitus, etc), Yelm the Sun (I dunno), Yelm the Ruler (Antirius) -- whose worship is restricted to a few nobles and the Emperor, and so on. I wouldn't bet on it, but it's possible.
Uleria (Uleria again!) is a Special Case. I doubt if she is a Great God in the sense that a whole culture worships Her (although there's that Zoria place), but She has many faces and a lot of different cultures honor Her (in different ways, some as enemies).
me:
>> Additionally, to be a greater god, I think a significant
>portion of
>>a society must be focused on a diety.
>
>I'm sure that is not true. The greater gods simply are what they are.
>Their status not merely a measure of the size of their congregations.
Well, I don't know. As I point out above, Shargash, Maran Gor, and even Orlanth seem to be Great Gods in one place and not in others. I suspect Yelmalio is a Great God in Sun Country (multiple aspects), and maybe in the Sun Dome lands in Sartar, but is he that complex through the Empire? In Balazar?
>Gods, and indeed mortals, can be reborn. This is not a direct affront
>to Humakt because he is not anti-life.
It's certainly as good an answer as mine....
>On the other hand, Humakti do not see resurrection - another form of
>rebirth - as being something they can participate in. It's something
>for other people.
And a fine explaination.
>Finally, with regard to Kyger Litor, and other troll or hell gods. I
>believe Kyger Litor is, by nature, exclusively a being of the
>underworld.
But her children live in the world (and some, I suppose, still in the Underworld). Wherever there are Uz, there is Kygor Litor, the Great Mother. Even "bad seeds" like Zorak Zoran react to Kygor Litor. An Uz is not an Uz without that connection. Humakt, on the other hand, is Death for the Orlanthi. Other cultures, even other Theist cultures, manage to die without his assistance....
>There is a difference between the power of death, which does manifest
>in the real world, and the person of Death himself. They are not
>the same thing. To summon Humakt personally into the world would be
>the death of everything. Just as the radiance of Yelm lights up the
>whole
>world, and the winds of orlanth extend across the whole world, so the
>manifest force of death would slice through all life.
The radiance of Yelm is absent from Heortling lands, where Elmal's Shield shines, and in Teshnos Somash is the Sun. Orlanth's winds blow in only small parts of Pamaltela. Didn't the Carmanians summon Humakt (or a Big Part of Him) into the world at the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light? Humakt is the Expression of Death for the Orlanthi, but He isn't Death, really.... (Or maybe He is, but only in certain places and at certain times.)
>Humakt is manifest in hell. You can journey there and talk to him if
>you like. You can meet him there face to face.
Is He? His followers claim that His Sword Hall encompasses the Underworld (Storm Tribe, p.89), but Kygor Litor, Shargash, Deshkorgos, and others might object to this.... Humakt's Hall looks like it lies at the entrance to the Underworld, at the edge of the Storm Realm (the non-very precise map at Thunder Rebels, p.137). You can certainly get to His Hall and talk to Him; where that place is depends on who you talk to, I think.
Peter Larsen
Powered by hypermail