>Me>I'm sorry but I am far from convinced about your definition that
> >variety makes a great god. CA has been accorded Great Goddess
> >status in print.
> Where? I've been looking at my RQ3 stuff, and I haven't seen it?
>(I'm not saying that it's not there, by the way; I just can't find it.)
The powers of the Great Runes are universally acknowledged.
The deities who command those runes are the Greater Gods.
Those deities cannot be changed without altering the very
fabric of the universe. Such is against the Cosmic Compromise
which begat Time, and cannot occur.
RQ3:Book 5 p13 (p242 in softback edition)
HARMONY: Owner (Original): Haranar Ilor, (Current), Chalana
Arroy.
RQ3:Book 5 p14 (p243 in softback edition).
Also:
[1474] There are several classes of gods. Some gods have
an importance so great that to eliminate them from the
universe would strain it, possibly destroying all of Glorantha.
Other gods are of lesser import. The Great Gods of the
universe are: Kyger Litor, Magasta, Ernalda, Orlanth, Yelm,
Aldrya, Hykim, Daka Fal, the Horned God, the Cosmic Dragon,
Malkion, Humakt, Uleria, Mostal, Chalana Arroy, Eurmal,
Dayzatar and Arachne Solara. Wakboth the Evil is also
included in this group, not because his elimination would
destroy the world, but because if he were allowed freedom, his
presence would destroy it.
Runequest Companion p9.
> >>Yes, I'm aware of this, but I find it hard to believe that a great
> >>god wouldn't be worshipped as something other than a subcult of
> >Like Pole Star, the King of Heaven, is worshipped as a subcult
> >of Orlanth? Like the son and daughter of Donandar, the High
> >God of Music are worshipped by Orlanth and Ernalda?
>I don't think any of these are great gods. They don't hold
>primal runes (as far as I know), so they aren't great gods
>by your definition, either.
The existing list of primal rune holders is incomplete when it comes to Pelorian and other non-Orlanthi mythologies. Shargash (only vaguely known then and not even a name) is listed along with Lodril and Oria on page 98 of the Glorantha: Intro.
>That's a bit of a promotion for Pole Star, isn't it?
No. He was given command of the Firmament when Dayzatar went away.
>Arraz is King of the Sky People (GRoY, p.66)
Yes, but there's a difference between King of the Sky People and King of Heaven.
>Pole Star doesn't even get into the "court" area of the
>Gods Wall (ibid., p.64-69).
Which is because he wasn't King of Heaven _then_.
>Malia, as I said before, was a fertility goddess, "a spirit of
>healing with great properties to aid growth and birth" (Lords
>of Terror, p.27) who perverted her powers to become a death
>goddess.
But she does not have any fertility powers *now* yet she's still recognized as mother of disease. Hence simply because Shargash is recognized as Father of Alkoth does not mean that they recognize him as having fertility powers.
>Bagog, as I said before, is the mother of the scorpion men -- despite
>her runes, she still is the primal source of the darned things and
>has, reasonably, fertility connections.
But the argument is over whether she is a fertility goddess because of her recognition as mother of the scorpion folk. She is not. Reasonable fertility connections are neither here or there as any deity in glorantha can claim such connections.
>I don't think "fertility" associations are as narrow as you make
>them out to be. Both Orlanth and Elmal have fertility powers, and
>neither one holds the fertility rune;
So Orlanth and Elmal are Gods of Life because they have ferility connections? You see why I am not convinced of your chain of logic that because Shargash is the Father of Alkoth, he has fertility connections and so is worshipped as a God of Life?
>it's just part of what they are -- as great gods,
Elmal is a great god?
> >But I just quoted what the _Alkothi_ think about him. That
> >was an Alkothi poem and therefore the Alkothi do not consider
> >Shargash to be a god of life. Yet he is a Great God
> >nevertheless.
>"Then Shargash went to the Stronghold, and from there he released
>the imprisoned animals and plants, so the world was renewed again.
>Before the witness of the whole world, Shargash strode forth upon
>the heavens and made it right again, and all life followed him."
>(GRoY, p.101)
And this is evidence of Shargash having _intrinsic_ fertility powers? When Humakt kills Orlanth and shows his brother how to rise again (ST p88), you don't consider Humakt a fertility deity.
>"All of the participants are inevitably plunged deep into the
>ultimate despair of death, and they all are transferred to the
>Land of the Dead, and everyone who is released afterwards is
>also purged and refreshed in the manner which can be provided
>only by such a rite." (ibid., p.102)
I don't see anything about a fertility rite here. Danfive and Gerra have similar rituals but nobody thinks them fertility deities.
>In the names lists of Shargash in Enclosure 1 (p.35-36), Shargash
>is the father of his people through Alkor, his son, but he also
>is the power of fertility; this is a secret of the Shargash cults
>-- it's not something they are going to talk about to the uninitiated.
The names list does not describe Shargash as the power of fertility. It says he "holds" the power of fertility (I would have phrased it as saying his destruction causes fertility...), but that power is really no different from Humakt killing Orlanth and showing him how to rise again.
As for it being secret knowledge, I doubt it. Some of the secret names in enclosure would be basic information to learned Pelorians (such as the information that Shargash is Rufelza's brother or that he is lord of the demons). It might be knowledge that most Pelorians don't know (because they are too frightened to ask a Shargashi why they support a bloody-handed destroyer) but it is not something that the Shargashi would keep secret.
>The poem you quoted doesn't name Shargash "Rebellus Terminus,"
>either,
Because AFAIK he isn't. Yes, some gloranthans do recognize him as Rebellus Terminus but that is as mythically valid as the recognition that Shargash is Orlanth. It is not part of Shargash's core identity.
>I'm curious that you don't seem to accept the material in
>Enclosure, which makes Shargash's fetility aspects clear -- I realize
>that it's not canon, but Enclosure has a pretty good pedigree.
The only fertility aspect that Shargash is given in enclosure is the powers of his son, Alkor. Everything else is war and destruction. From the Entekosiad, Alkor appears to be a manifestation of Alk, the Goddess of Nature. Now I'm not going to speculate on the exact relationships, but I do think that Alk is a fertile aspect of nature acceptable to Shargash eyes rather than an intrinsic aspect of Shargash himself (in much the same way as Harst is acceptable to Orlanth even though he's Issaries son).
> >A god is great if he has a substantial transcendent component and
> >this will not vary depending on what a worshipper believes.
>Almost any god can claim to have a "substantial transcendant
>componant."
But some are much greater than others. It is these ones that are called great gods.
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #496
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