>On the other hand, I think the definition [of great god] may have
>changed:
I don't think so. When Greg usually changes definitions like this, he's actually describing the other (or even same) side of a coin.
>Each culture usually has at least one great god or goddess, often the head
>of the pantheon.
It does not state that _only_ Heads of Pantheons can be Great Gods.
>I think our problem is that there are (at least) two axes here,
>both of which are topped by "great gods."
I think they are the _same_ axes.
>One is the earlier definition
>which describes gods of cosmological necessity. The other, more recent,
>idea is gods that can provide the core of a society.
There is a major difference in meaning between the _ability_ to provide the core of a society and a god actually doing so.
>Humakt, on the other hand, is cosmologically
>necessary, but you'd be hard pressed to build a society on Him.
I'm not going to assume Humakt is incapable of providing of providing a social basis on the grounds that the known Heortling cult appears not to support it. Humakt is influential among other cultures (the Carmanians for example) and might have different aspects there. Other aspects such as War and Oaths are possible.
>Now, I have a problem with the earlier definition -- are any gods
>"cosmoogically necessary" anymore? Orlanth is no longer really Air,
>he is the greatest Air god, sure, but there are wide sections of
>Glorantha that get by without Him.
The Orlanth cult writeup in Thunder Rebels still takes the view that Orlanth's existence is a cosmological necessity. As for the question about Orlanth importance in the wider world, my opinion is that in theistic regions (Peloria, Ralios, Inland Fronela, Maniria, Umathela and Fonrit), the worshippers find Orlanth's existence a critical necessity (even if he is considered an enemy god). In lands that subscribe to other viewpoints (sorcery, animism and mysticism), Orlanth's existence is not essential but other entities become necessarily existent for the viewpoints to make sense.
Now by acknowledging Orlanth, I do not mean that they must have some sort of entity called Orlanth in their pantheon who dresses up like the Heortlings do. Instead they have some sort of entity whom the Orlanthi can recognize as their god.
>Even Peloria, which is not unfamiliar with the idea of
>Orlanth, finds other gods to handly their Air and Storm needs.
Yeah, but even the Pelorians recognize that the Storm Barbarians have greater mastery over the aerial element than their own storm gods. They will dispute my cosmological reason for this, but they still recognize it.
>Similarly, Humakt may be Death for the Orlanthi, but Pelorians die
>without Him,
The Pelorians do not die without Humakt and he is acknowledged in their pantheon as "Urnbudud" (GRAY p56).
>the People of Pamalltela die without Him, and the Brithini manage
>to not die without Him.
That is because they subscribe to different world views (animism and sorcery respectively).
>Elmal and Yelm are boh the sun -- if Yelm were erased, the sun
>wouldn't go out,
When Yelm was "erased", the sun did go out. Even though Elmal still lived, he was a much weaker entity compared to what had gone before.
>although the Dara Happa would lose many vital things
>(Justice, Rulership, Fertility (maybe), Male Identity (for the nobles),
>and so on.
The Dara Happans still had access to those concepts through the worship of inferior entities (Antirius - Justice etc).
Powered by hypermail