more Great Gods

From: Peter Metcalfe <>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 12:16:29 +1200

Peter Larsen:

>Anyway, looking at GRoY, it looks to me that Urnbudud is more
>likely violence than death, as it's associated with Dorburdun,
>Vadrus, and Orlanth who are not death (and, as far as I know,
>don't have death connections).

I don't understand how you state that Urnbudud is violence rather than death considering that the constellation so described is the "Sword" Constellation (which the Orlanthi associate with Humakt - Glorantha: Intro p241). His stated myth there (he is the reason why the Desert is so empty today) indicates killing rather than violence.

As for its associations, the footnote only speaks of "connections". Humakt is connected to Orlanth as far as any Dara Happan knows or cares.

>It does, however, support my thought that there is a quality of
>Sun-ness "above" Yelm and Elmal (the mythical clade tree branches
>below both of them).

Yeah, but the topic is about Great Gods which are the ultimate _theistic_ sources of primal concepts. And because Elmal is a god and Yelm the Great God, the source of Elmal's power is still Yelm.

>Even if he is the greatest and most wide-spread expression of Air
>and Storm, it ios possible to be a Storm god that does not partake
>of the nature of Orlanth of the Orlanthi, Allfather and cultural
>construct (at least in part).

Any storm entity that does not partake of Orlanth's nature is not a god (although it can be a spirit, essence or purely mystical concept).

>Urox and Orlanth are separate things (at least on some level;
>they are both Air), and Elmal and Yelm are also separate things,
>despite both being the Sun.

I fear you are conflating concepts again. Merely indicating that something is a Great God has never meant that lesser gods are a masks, avatars or servants for it. All lesser gods have runic associations from elsewhere that differentiate them from their Great Gods.

It is difficult to see this now given the HW habit of giving each deity with its own rune, but with a standard array of runes (such as the God Learners had), one can see these influences more clearly (evidence: see RQ material).

In the case of Urox, his storm powers are modified by his brutal disorder and his death (there's also some major juju from his spirit nature but I'll ignore that for now). These give him powers that Orlanth does not have yet at the same time they distance him from the primal storm powers.

Elmal has some unknown runic associations that distinguish him from Yelm (since he is healed by Chalana Arroy, a possibility could be: Light, Fertility and Harmony). This gives him the ability to get along with members of the Storm Tribe yet also remove him from Yelm's authority.

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