>I don't understand how you state that Urnbudud is violence
>rather than death considering that the constellation so
>described is the "Sword" Constellation (which the Orlanthi
>associate with Humakt - Glorantha: Intro p241). His stated
>myth there (he is the reason why the Desert is so empty
>today) indicates killing rather than violence.
Do all the constellations have universal associations?
>As for its associations, the footnote only speaks of
>"connections". Humakt is connected to Orlanth as far
>as any Dara Happan knows or cares.
Good point.
>>It does, however, support my thought that there is a quality of
>>Sun-ness "above" Yelm and Elmal (the mythical clade tree branches
>>below both of them).
>
>Yeah, but the topic is about Great Gods which are the ultimate
>_theistic_ sources of primal concepts. And because Elmal is a
>god and Yelm the Great God, the source of Elmal's power is still
>Yelm.
I've been arguing against that definition of great god.
>I fear you are conflating concepts again. Merely indicating
>that something is a Great God has never meant that lesser
>gods are a masks, avatars or servants for it. All lesser
>gods have runic associations from elsewhere that differentiate
>them from their Great Gods.
This definition pushes Gloranthan theism back toward the monomyth. If there is an ultimate source of theistis Sun-ness, it resides above Yelm, outside of the perception of nearly everyone. Elmal either nerver partook of Yelm (the Yelm is not Evil Emperor model) or separated himself (the Yelm is the Evil Emperor model). Yelm has a much closer connection to that primal Sun-ness (maybe that's what holding the rune means) and His worshippers have access to broader and more profound powers than the Elmali, partially because they have a better "conduit" and partly because they have a much more developed philosophical structure. They did, after all, get to spend thousands of extra years thinking about Solar Truth while the ELmali were off herding cows, fighting other barbarians and refusing to learn how to wash. I suspect that there is no good way for an Elmali to connect to mainstream (ie Dara Happan) Solar Worship beauce there is no connection. Elmali who want a deeper Solar understanding either need to have Amazing Theist Revelations and be kick-ass Heroquesters (not too likely) or give up Elmal altogether and jump ship to the closest Solar cult - -- Yelmalio. All in my opinion.
>It is difficult to see this now given the HW habit of giving
>each deity with its own rune, but with a standard array of
>runes (such as the God Learners had), one can see these
>influences more clearly (evidence: see RQ material).
The Godlearners missed the point so often that I doubt their system is much use from within a culture or pantheon.
>In the case of Urox, his storm powers are modified by his brutal
>disorder and his death (there's also some major juju from his
>spirit nature but I'll ignore that for now). These give him
>powers that Orlanth does not have yet at the same time they
>distance him from the primal storm powers.
>
>Elmal has some unknown runic associations that distinguish him
>from Yelm (since he is healed by Chalana Arroy, a possibility
>could be: Light, Fertility and Harmony). This gives him
>the ability to get along with members of the Storm Tribe yet
>also remove him from Yelm's authority.
It seems to me that we are pretty much describing the same thing. The only difference is that you believe that a great god holds a rune that makes them the source of all powers relating to that rune, where as I think the ultimate source is elsewhere, and the holder of the rune is just the biggest god of that type. (And that "great god" means something more cultural, but we've pretty much run that one into the dirt.) So Orlanth is the Biggest Storm, not the Only Storm, Yelm is the Biggest Sun, not the Only Sun. Chalana Arroy is the Biggest Healer, not the Only Healer, and so on.
Part of the problem is that the Heortlings are still the best described culture in Glorantha. This has tended to aggregate the "Biggest Gods" into their pantheon, and the ensuing "cultural relativity" impovershes the other theist cultures. It seems right to me that Dorburdun should have approximately the same relation to Yelm/the Red Goddess and the Empire as Elmal has to Orlanth and the Heortlings (a little less, actually, I doubt Dorburdun has the rulership asscoaiations), and Chalana Arroy is worshipped in both places in largely the same fashion, but Humakt seems way too Orlanthi/Heortling to be the source of Pelorian Death (isn't the Pelorian Death goddess a sneaky little bat?).
Peter Larsen
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #509
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