Re: Great Gods list

From: Joerg Baumgartner <>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:58:28 +0200

Peter Metcalfe:
>>>Eurmal (Illusion or Disorder),

>>I agree with this deviation from the GL order of Runic associations.

>I don't think that we ever will get a perfect match with
>their Runic Associations. Rather than make a decision about
>what Eurmal represents or try and pretend Dayzatar is still
>capable of theistic worship, I think it wiser to acknowledge
>them as imperfections.

True. What I'm interested in is to get a full set of identifications with primal runes for the Theyalans of Maniria and Dragon Pass. The GL list is a fair start, but has a few mistakes.

>Issaries has the communication rune and Lhankor has the truth
>rune. However they haven't been implied as Great Gods before
>(either in the RQ3 list or Gods of Glorantha) and so I refrained
>from listing them.

Understood. However, when I compared Ehilm to Elmal re: False Gods below I wondered why you were fairly free to assign a Great God-equivalent to most known Saints and False Gods there. The Orlanthi have extras thanks to their (former?) inclusiveness of alien deities

>>Apart from her fire nature, Furalor appears to be "Death as gate to
>>the next life", much like Ty Kora Tek/Asrelia.

>Furalor isn't really that. The things that she devours are gone
>from this world unlike the Teshnans who die and come again.

I'll have to reread what is known about her then. My database (and memory) still has her as goddess of funerals for all Teshnans.

>>I'm a bit uneasy about making all known Teshan deities Great Gods
>>- what is it that the Teshnans know "better" than the rest of the

>They don't. They roughly have the same number of Great Gods as
>do the Dara Happans and the Orlanthi. One can dispute whether
>Calyz or Furalor really are Great Gods but we don't have enough
>information either way.

Which means the information is in the making by whoever gets to detail Teshnos...

Calyz and Solf would have been my prime candidates for omission of the Great Gods list. They are the most "human" of the Teshnan gods, and either could be regarded as the Teshnan version of Lodril/Turos/<insert fiery earth husband> (in different aspects).

>>And if Solf is Male Earth, Black Sun might as well...

>No, even if you meant Zerel Fan as a whole.

I did, and wrote this away from my sources. I made this comparison because of Solf's ecstatic self-destruction side, which is only slightly more pleasant than Gerra's or what I suspect for Ignorance.

>The Black
>Sun has the look and feel of a darkness deity (spiritual
>blindness) and the Blood Sun is connected with Blood, not
>Earth. Then there's the question about Zerel Fan's status
>as an anti-god (which means he lacks any connection to
>the transcendent).

Is that written in stone? I ask because the Vithelans have the "Noble Errors" as chiefs of the antigods, yet each representing the lead for one of the other magic systems and thereby to the Transcendent. I suppose what is known as Chaos to Theyalans or Lunars has its transcendent connection as well.

Ancient Mostali
>>And anyway, these would be the cultural aspects of the Greater

>"Cultural" sends the wrong message IMO. The manifestations
>that the Mostali work with (Iron etc) have real and concrete
>existence. Even if they are heretics, they would see the
>same thing.

Mostali would, outsiders (and apostates) not necessarily. I doubt that even the Third Eye Blue smiths share the Mostali perception.

>>The Original Mostali and the Celestial Court (sort of) coexisted,
>>so I hesitate to identify them too closely.

>Although one might be able to point out old references that
>mention the Celestial Court and the Decamony in the same myth
>(i.e. Different Worlds #24), I think that was tainted by the
>God Learner monomyth.

My impression, too. Something like the entirety of Mostal is implicit in Maker of Theyalan myths, but that's about the amount of intersection I'm comfortable with. Later contacts with Greatway may have produced lesser links (Isidilian's projects, Flintnail), but nothing of the order of "Great Gods".

>There is an alternate possibility however. Following
>Zzabur's taxonomic descent of animals in Anaxial's
>Roster, one could also construct a similar taxonomy for

Which is in DW #24 (and on the website) as well, giving the exact sequence. Any similarity with the Dara Happan Ten Glorantay would surprise me...

>>>Zzabur (Magic), Zoamalos (Beast) from Anaxial's Roster,
>>>Malkion (Law). [...]

>>In which way is this different from Heler
>>(water) or Elmal (sun) to the Orlanthi?

>That they are sorcerous entities is the big difference. I've
>said before that I don't know enough about how Malkioni view
>the relationship between the primal runes and their saints
>(or philosophers for the atheists).

They are of a different stage of Creation, the way I see them. Purely from memory, the Runes are 2nd Action, the Primal Philosophers or Saints/False Gods/Primal Entities 3rd or even 4th Action (since Ehilm, Genner, Worlath or Humct appear to be already parts of the multiplication, and the Malkioni Caste Saints mostly too).

As I said before, I hesitate to let the Malkioni make too close a connection. The False Gods appear to have learned something akin to the Great Secrets of the known Great Gods of Theism, but that doesn't make them the origin. The Runic Powers should be known and treated separately by the Malkioni wise ones. Popular belief may differ, but has little magical consequence in the sorcery planes IMO. (Even though the False God Revolt showed the God Learners that this doesn't mean no consequence...)

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