>David Dunham:
>>I doubt Orlanthi have parties to discuss philosophy, like ancient
>>Athenians did, but I wouldn't discount their ability to reason about
>>one of the most important things in their lives.
>
>Reason is not the same thing as Abstract Thought or Philosophy.
>I can reason that the Black Oaks stole my cows or that what the
>dragonpriests say about Orlanth Dragonfriend is wrong, but such
>does not confer the ability to wonder about what it means for
>Orlanth to have a transcendent portion.
I'm in agreement with Mr. Dunham here -- you vastly underestimate the need and ability of people to speculate about things.
>Peter Larsen:
>>My point was that the Orlanthi do engage in fairly high-levvel
>>philosophical speculation from time to time; it is
>>not as alien to their character as you paint it.
>
>Your _original_ point was that abstract thought was necessary
>to improving the potency of their religion (i.e. turning a God
>into a Great God IIRC), and you adduced the Dara Happans (based
>on a notion that the insights of their philosophers are
>transmitted to the Lodrili and Shargashi alike). I pointed out
>the Orlanthi to disprove this.
As I recall, my point was that philosophical development might be one part of "improving" a religion and the magic gained from it. And that, even if Orlanthi didn't do it (as a culture), that says nothing about whether they would benefit if they did.
Perhaps more elaborate religious philosophies give the Dara Happa an edge over the Orlanthi. This might be balanced by the more "hands on" approach to religion (eg heroquesting) among the Orlanthi. The magical and political "balance of power" is maintained, and neither culture manages to invade the other for long. The Lunars benefit from both approaches and do serious dirt to the Orlanthi.
>Now unless you can show that the standard Orlanthi religious
>practice as presented in Thunder Rebels incorporates the
>philosophical speculations from the EWF and the Bright Council,
>then your original point does not have much to support it.
Since we don't know that much about the philosophical speculations of those cultures, that's fairly impossible. Anyway, it's hardly necessary for me to prove that. Just because your average rural Baptist can't discuss the great Christian debates and councils of the late Ancient and Medieval eras doesn't mean that the philosophical speculations and concerns of those times have not had a fundamental effect on that rural Baptist's religion.
>>There could be loads of weird philosophical speculation that never
>>gets out of the priest's heads (especially among the Alkoring).
>
>If it "never gets out", then how can it be transmitted and
>improve the religion?
It doesn't, except maybe in small ways on the clan level. That the Orlanthi political and social structure does not encourage exploration of religious philosophy doesn't mean that it doesn't happen or that the Orlanthi as a whole would benefit from it. The Orlanthi as a whole might benefit from Smallpox vaccine (or its Gloranthan equivalent), windmills, the Dewey Decimal system, or Vithelan mysticism -- that doesn't mean that they would accept them if they had the chance.
>>I'm saying that religeous speculation is not as alien to their
>>culture as you think.
>
>Because I never thought it. What I did say was "abstract thought"
>and "philosophical speculation" were alien to their culture.
>There is a major difference between that and Harmast wondering
>about how Orlanth saved the cosmos.
And I'm saying that "abstract thought" and "philosophical speculation" are universal human attributes (although more obvious in some people and peoples than others). Without them, the Orlanthi might as well be their cows.
Peter Larsen
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #522
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