Yeah, I totally buy this. However, that's not the statement I was objecting to. I was objecting to the more generaly statement that Gloranthans are willing to admit when their own gods are inferior to another culture's god because the other culture's is a Great God in the sense of holding the rune. I think Elmal may be a special case because the Orlanthi have a myth specifically connecting him to the evil King of the Fire Tribe. In that context they would certain be willing to admit that their sun has less fire powers than the evil emperor.
>> [I asked for examples of cults with neighbors where one god is Great and the neighboring god of the same type is not.]
> Yelm and Elmal, Orlanth and Entekos, Heler and
> Magasta...
I would say that Heler has the same sort of myth relating him to the water tribe that Elmal has for the fire tribe. He was recognized to be a lesser god before he joined Orlanth and remained such afterwards.
Orlanth and Entekos is a more interesting example. I have a hard time envisioning a Dara Happan acknowledging that thier Good Air Entekos is inferior to the unruly storm Orlanth of those smelly hill barbarians. You would have to give them overwhelming evidence. Of which more below.
> >I can't remember who the Dara Happans worship as
> >their Earth Great Goddess. Is it an Ernalda
> > cognate?
>
> Oria. I think she is great, but the rune is
> different (and weirdly related to the rune for
> Carmanos!).
So, presumably Dara Happans would not acknowledge that Ernalda is Great. After all, even the barbarians say that she was originally a handmaiden of Yelm. Contrary to the Elmal and Heler examples, Ernalda seems like a case where a goddess in an inferior role in a foreign myth becomes great (small-g, meaning cultural leader). I guess this represents the Dara Happan oppression of the earth. In any case, if any Gloranthan can recognize a great god, how do they claim that Oria is Great Earth when we already know that Ernalda is? Is your note about the different rune a suggestion that Oria is not-quite-Earth, but something sufficiently different that she can be Great, too?
> >I don't buy this explanation. You used the yellow
> >elves as an example,
>
> I didn't. I said "If there were worshippers of a
> Lesser
> Sun God in and around Teshnos (perhaps among the
> Yellow
> Elves)...".
Well, OK. That seems like an example to me.
> >and the elves play by extremely
> >different rules, since they can mix and match
> theism
> >and animism without even identifying them as such.
>
> The incapability of the elves from distinguishing
> between
> theism and animism is irrelevant. If it is a god,
> then
> it is by definition, a theistic entity and thus not
> their
> Sun spirit Halamalao.
I think Greg's recent comments on the mixed nature of things elfish _may_ mean that Halamalao is not solely comprised of spirit. In the Aldryami terms, he is a harmony in the song, or something like that. But the notes comprising him could be animistic and theistic, just like an Aldryami forest and the Aldryami afterlife.
> And when they do worship it, they
> will be aware that it is not the ultimate fire god.
I probably agree with you there, but disagree with the implication here and the express statement before that they would be aware that their god is an inferior expression of the fire rune. Their afterlife is centered around the Great Tree herself. They will not experience any sort of otherworld that implies that their sun is less than someone else's.
> >How does a theist recognize that a particular
> >god is a Great God?
>
> Through observation. I sacrifice to the Storm, I
> end up in the Storm Realm. I sacrifice to the
> Earth, I end up in Daleel, the Earth Realm. The God
> at the centre of that Realm is the Great God.
If I sacrifice to Elmal, surely I end up in Elmal's
place in the Storm Realm, where he's the biggest
sun/fire/light god around. If I am Orlanthi and
worship Yelm, here's something wrong with me and, if I
end up in the Evil Emperor's Palace, of course the
Evil Emperor will be more powerful than Elmal.
>
> >None of the descriptions of Orlanth in his hall on
> >the God Plane seem to imply this to me.
>
> Not even the bits about him being surrounded by
> other gods?
Nope. This indicates to me that he is great (little-g, meaning a cultural leader), not Great (big-g, rune-holder).
> I forbore to mention the ninth door.
Only Great Gods would have the equivalent and all Great Gods would have the equivalent?
> >Do you recognize a Great gods because he
> >shifts aspects?
>
> Since lesser gods only have one aspect, having
> multiple aspects is a sign of being a great god, no?
Yes, that was my question. Would an Orlanthi visiting Orlanth's hall see Orlanth shift from Orlanth Allfather to Orlanth Thunderous (or whatever)? If so, is it reasonable that Glorantha's accept this as a sign that the god has a higher order existence that makes him Great? (This is not a rhetorical question.)
I'll buy your arguments on Orlanth and Storm Bull as they relate to animism v. theism.
I think the
> >real answer is that ordinary Gloranthans are not
> able
> >to rate the gods of their own cultures compared to
> >those of other cultures.
>
> So the Orlanthi can't tell whether Magasta is a
> greater
> god than Heler?
Yes, they can because they have a myth that Heler once served Magasta.
What I meant, but did not say, is that Gloranthans cannot comparatively rate their own gods compared to gods that do not appear in their own myths. They do not have a scale to go by. You are close to persuading me that they can recognize that a god that has multiple aspects is different and more than one that does not. Does multiple aspects correspond 1 to 1 with holding a rune?
> >They will use the exact same sort of evidence (and
> be subject
> >to the same sorts of physchology) as people in the
> real world.
>
> Except that gloranthans have access to _magical_
> evidence.
> Unless you believe in the uncanonical belief makes
> reality
> position,
Nope.
> the gods have real existence on the
> godplane
> (although it doesn't work like the mortal world
> does) and
> given such a existence, they can be compared with
> one
> another. How else do you think the gloranthans
> could come
> up with the concept of Great Gods?
I think the God Learners were the exception and that this is a God Learner concept. Run Sight allowed them to read the essence of each god. (Thank goodness the Mostali put those bar codes on all of them.)
Chris
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