Great Gods

From: Peter Metcalfe <>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:04:01 +1200

Joerg Baumgartner:

> > Turos cannot be "more of" the Great God than Lodril. Either he
> > is the Great God of his element or he isn't.

>I wasn't talking about being Great God of his element (whichever that
>would be) but of his realm (which is fiery underworld and earth, with
>sky connections and some remaining sky presence, plus (an integration
>of?) some sort of disorder).

Which is the meaning of element that I was objecting to. Since Lodril is a Great God of a realm and Turos is also a god of that realm, then Turos cannot be a Great God (unless he was another name for Lodril).

>But then a cultural deity doesn't need to be (an "independent aspect"
>of) a Great God. In case of Turos, however, there comes a strong portion
>of "Creator" god who made or shaped almost half of the universe, and
>this is an argument for his "Great God" status.

Turos doesn't make or shape half the world, not even in the Pelandan era myths. If you are referring to his father or fathers, then parentage alone does not confer Great Godhood (otherwise Heler would be one and he isn't).

> > Where do the God Learners consider Lodril a Great God? Lodril
> > is named as a Great God on the basis of Glorantha: Intro p98,
> > not because of any God Learner scheme.

>DHan Lodril gets the honours of being "the volcanoe god" in God
>Learner monomyth. Whether the God Learners classified him as Great
>God or not doesn't concern me that much, but I contest his primacy
>as volcano god.

But I didn't say Lodril was a Great God because he was the primal volcano god, I said that his Great Godhood might mean that he represented "male earth", which included volcanoes and a number of other things.

Hence whether the Lodrili of Dara Happa don't look very strong on their worship of the volcanic aspect of Lodril has little to do with whether they worship a Great God or not.

>Belonging to the Celestial Court is something of an automatic
>membership in the circle of Great Gods, as far as I am concerned.

No, it isn't. The Great Gods are partly defined in that they are reachable through sacrifice (if they weren't reachable, then they wouldn't be Gods). The entities of the Celestial Court fail this criteria because they are not reachable through sacrifice. Whether they might have been Great Gods in the long distant past (which is close to unknowable for gloranthans) is not relevant to whether they are Great Gods now.

I am being rather precise about this because I feel that if we start loosening the definition (like admitting Dayzatar as a Great God) then the definition ceases to have any useful utility and also creates the question of how the God Learners ever came up with such a concept.

> > The Pelandan High Gods are not equivalent of the Celestial Court
> > overseeing Creation but the equivalent of the Storm Tribe as gods
> > being for people to worship.

>That's KetTuros and the various lesser forms of all of the Pelandan
>High Gods. Those upon the Mountain are the distant ones, the ones who

The Gods on the Mountains _are_ worshipped today. Oria is on the Mountain, Oria is worshipped today. Likewise with Bentus, Idovanus, Daxdarius, Natha, Dendara etc. Just because they are up on the Mountain does not mean they are distant transcendees, any more than Orlanth is because he lives in the Storm Realm.

The "lesser forms", KetTuros etc., can easily be dealt with in Hero Wars by making them subcults of Turos: i.e. the worshippers get two Turos affinities and a third based on the particular subcult that they chose (KetTuros, HerraTuros, DedaddiTuros and ChekTuros).

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