Re: Second Age Empire

From: TERRA INCOGNITA <inarsus-ferilt-z_at_mrg.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:58:30 +0900


> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:21:54 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> Subject: Eastern Seas Empire
>
> Terra Incognita
>
> > Mokatan Empire aka East Sea Empire:
> >
> > Start:
> > Pinnacle:
> > End:
> > (Do you know about these precise dates?)
>
> The start of the Eastern Seas empire was contemporary with the Jrusteli
> war against the Waertagi (or 718 ST). The end came shortly before the
Closing.
>
> >AFAIK most Reliable Source is Glorantha: Introduction to Hero Wars and
> >Mokatan Middle Sea Empire seems ruled most of Areas of East Sea even
> >semi-Heroplane Isles such like Forng and Memb.
>
> Forng and Memb are not semi-heroplanes AFAIK. They are actual
> countries but in the category of fantastical lands.
>

I think meaning of the term of "Heroplane" is gradually changed. Once most of edge around middle world were categorized to "Heroplane" in RuneQuest, but I think Greg Stafford shifted to more specified "Subjective" World to this oncept.

> >I find difficulty to imagine the Last Days of Mokatan Empire Glory, God
> >Hobimarong ordered his worshippers (and Citizens of Empire) voluntarily
to
> >abandone the Glory of the Empire.
>
> The choice was much easier when he warned them of what would happen
> if they didn't abandon the Empire. Since Old Hobimarong is never
> wrong, given up the Eastern Seas empire was easy.
>

Some of Mayanic Piramids seems suddenly abandoned in the past short period, many modern archeologists still conceive doubts why they could easily submit to the prophesy (and stupid order of rulers)

> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:25:42 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> Subject: Elf Empire of Errinoru
>
> Terra Incognita
>
> > Errinoru Lynersian Jungle Council (South)
>
> The Lynel Council is merely the council that produced Errinoru.
> The actual governing entity of the Elf Empire was the House of
> Errinoru.
>

I cannot help putting on mysterious sources to existings. Tone of "Lynelsian" is fascinating.

> >Most Reliable Source of Errinoru Empire is the Elder Secrets of
Glorantha:
> >Avalonhill, Elder Races Book. Errinoru Empire was collapsed by enigmatic
> >epidemic brought by Monsters and bugs which ate Magical Flowers of
Errinoru
> >Family.
>
> I assume that this epidemic was caused by the Doraddi of Kothar.
>

My suspect is Fonritan "Chaos" Worshipper...

> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:22:54 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> Subject: EWF
>
> Terra Incognita:
>
> > EWF aka Empire of Wyrm's Friend (North)
>
> > Start: 575 (Walzing and Hunting Band)
> > Pinnacle: 875? (Pent, Ralios, Fronela, Prax?: Glorantha Book of
Genertela
> >Box. but perhaps their influence is limited to religious term of these
> >outskirt area as Nysalor Missionaries of First Age. See Pelorian Map of
> >Fortunate Succession.)
>
> I don't know how far the EWF reached into Fronela. The most obvious
> way is barred by the Carmanians who were never part of the EWF. I
> assume that EWF influence took a circuitous route, spreading from
> Peloria into Ralios (through Aggar) then into Jorstland and then
> back over the Nidan Mountains into what is now Jonatela. The extent
> of EWF in Prax is better known: it introduced the Pure Horse Tribe
> and was partly responsible for the Sun Domers and the City of Pavis.
>

But IIRC, Pass of Rockwood Mountain is not found until the end of second age...
AFAIK Alakoring and his army passed through the route of Rockwood-Aggar, or Draconic
Missinaries could use their own wings.

> >(I don't know the connection between similarity of Dragonewt
> >Philosophy and Eastern Mythology of Glorantha,
>
> They sprang from the same source.
>

I cannot agree about it, Dragonewts are far more incomprehensible than eastern philosophy.

> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:12:32 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> Subject: God Learners
>
> Terra Incognita:
>
> >World View of God learners are generally perceived as Older Version
> >Glorantha Perspective because they thought One True Glorantha and Idea of
> >unified Mythology as method to gain materialistic power and reached to
> >Solace and Joy (if they were not atheistic as Brithini.)
>
> The God Learners believed in Makan, the One Mind and Hrestol's
> Joy seems to be incompatible with this.
>

I cannot say I understand it.
Below is a quote from GS:
>One popular version was called THE RIGHT POWER (Kionvaran). He has a
>special interest in Rightness and the Righteous. At first it was a powerful
>unifying movement in Jrustela, and inspired the Return to Righteousness
>Crusade which brought monotheism to mainland Genertela. However, they later
>became a rigid and bitter band of arch fundamentalists, interpreting
>everything through their own book, called the Sharp Abiding Book today.
>The God Learners got more abstract and claimed that the Invisible God was
>Makan, the Great Mind. They increasingly distanced themselves from the
>mundane world in favor of this god until they lost themselves completely.
>The so-called Inflamers went so far that the actually performed pagan burnt
>sacrifices to the Invisible God, who they called Zabandan. They were even
>considered wayward by the demonologists who tried to conquer gods. They
>were eventually exterminated by the Righteous.

I cannot say I understand all of Greg's statements, but Orthodox Malkioni stresses importance of both Malkion and Hrestol. And Abridged Version Abiding Book is still "Holy" Book for modern New Fronelan Hrestoli. Would you try to analyze my confused idea and put in order my brain?

> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:39:50 EDT
> From: Kmnellist_at_aol.com
> Subject: Re: Second Age
>
> In a message dated 28/09/01 17:13:52, you write:
> Terra Incognito:
> << If you want to set a campaign in 2nd Age Glorantha, we can find some
> difficulty to construct a Background: (Of course, you can call it as a
> flexibility for eachMasters.) >>
>
> I disagree with this of course. I have set my campaign in the second age.
> There is, IMO, quite a lot of background, as long as you restrict yourself
to
> a specific area and are prepared to make stuff up. This is the same as the
> Third Age of course, where you would have a lack of background of you
picked
> the wrong region.
>

Hmpph. (Nero Wolfe)
I think the source of most hard to comprehension is economical system, population and taxations, etc..
1st Age and 3rd Age Orlanthi are too "primitive" even for Modern Lunars. IMO, Population of 2nd Age is unknown even if we can count the Dead Number of Dragonkill indentified with Night of Horror. (around Hundred Thousand?) Below is Quote of Joerg Baumgartner:

Me:
>> I know City Culture is mainly Dara Happan Style when recent
>> Sartarite remind it without Southern Thrived Culture of
>> Esrolian and Pharaohic Rule, But 1st Age Orlanthi? Maybe
>> they were too diferent from Modern Heortlings as RW Ancient
>> Magna Graecian Greeks and Modern Sicily Dwellers. Magic
>> maybe worked as modernization Change, How many dwell in
>> Imperial Age? Shortage of Information.

>I agree, solid info is rare. Most of this has been postulated from tiny
>hints, and more often than not people have disagreed about a subject.

>Orlanthi changed their character several times. The myth "Vadrus and the
>Logic Tribe" in Anaxial's record reminds of a time when the beast totems
>of the various Orlanthi groups still were dominant. In the Darkness,
>many Orlanthi fell back to this. Maybe some of the Ralian Orlanthi who
>were converted from native Hsunchen had become Hsunchen from some
>proto-Orlanthi theism. The end of the Kodigvari (royal Vingkotling)
>tribe of Esrolia marked the important change in Orlanthi culture to
>Heortling. An archaic beast-form period is overcome by one of the
>beastform refugees, Heort the Swift. New, different social orders are
>made. Social leadership replaces birthright leadership.

>Heort's ways enabled one group of Dragon Pass humans to become the quite
>urban Dorastans within 100 years. I have little doubt that most other
>Heortlings could have urbanized as fast.

>But the Dorastans and the Talastari united under Lokamayadon, who
>introduced a totally different approach, mystical unity rather than
>cooperative unity. Lokamayadon systematically eradicated the system
>created by Heort, and replaced it by his own. Harmast took vague
>memories of the pre-Lokamayadon Systen and wrought an anti-Lokamayadon
>creed. This included a disdain for cities (Harmast lived almost nomadic
>in the mountains) which soon again was overcome by curiosity.

>Imperial Age Dragon Pass was as densely populated and apparently
>urbanized as Esrolia. (The travelogue of Hrestol Arganitis in KoS Jalk's
>Book (?) gives a lot of names and vague positions, though no sizes.)

> Keith Nellist
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:40:11 EDT
> From: Kmnellist_at_aol.com
> Subject: Re: The Empires of the Second Age
>
> In a message dated 28/09/01 17:13:52, you write:
>
> << EWF aka Empire of Wyrm's Friend (North)>>
>
> Although EWF would seem to be a mystic practice I think they had a certain
> connection with the Korgatsu animist tradition, Orlanthi theist sacrifice
> (Orlanth Dragonfriend) and certain types of impersonal sorcery (Delecti,
City
> of 1000 Magicians) . I might suggest, if pushed, that the Third Council,
> being more aggressive and Imperialist than the previous Collective was
> dominated by Theists, rather than mystics who would retreat from the
> entanglements of Empire. (note that Zorak Zoran was a popular war god,
that
> the Council included significant parts of Theist Peloria.
>

> << Middle Sea Empire, Jrustela Empire (West)>>
>
> Clearly ruled by the Malkioni worldview, but with a wide range of peculiar
> interpretations including Zabandan (however that works), demonology,
> theomancy, zistorism, and including theist cults of any utility; Issaries,
> Lhankhor Mhy, Caladra, Aurelion. If you include the New Dragon Ring as an
> offshoot of the MSE then it also includes mystics.
>

And Incredible Connection of Worldwide "Primitive" Orlanthi (Tradetalk and Usage of Lhankor Mhy Knowledge) and Godlearners.

> << Mokatan East Sea Empire (East)>>
>
> I guess the god of the Mokatans was worshipped in a sacrificial manner,
> government would be carried out by his functionaries, although there would
be
> mystic sages among the population, they would not really be part of the
> government.
>
> Errinoru Lynersian Jungle Council (South) >>
>
> Bah! Elves! Yuck!
>

I think many Dwarves, Humans and Trolls surrendered to Errinoru's Leadership (or Tyranny).

>
> Keith Nellist
>
>
> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:32:16 +0200
> From: Nils Weinander <nils_w_at_yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Imperial Age
>
> Terra Incognita asks about the 2nd age empires.
>
> > Mokatan Empire aka East Sea Empire:
> >
> > Start:
> > Pinnacle:
> > End:
> > (Do you know about these precise dates?)
>
> I note that Peter M has already answered these and concur with
> his dates. I can only add that no exact chronology for the
> Mokatan empire has been written so far. The Closing arrives
> rather late in the east, so the Mokato Empire lasts quite
> long.
>
> > AFAIK most Reliable Source is Glorantha: Introduction to Hero Wars
>
> most likely.
>
> > and
> > Mokatan Middle Sea Empire seems ruled most of Areas of East Sea even
> > semi-Heroplane Isles such like Forng and Memb.
>
> Most areas, but not all islands. As Peter writes, Forng and Memb
> are not far east enough to be on the hero plane, but they are
> fabulous and little known places with a long history. Today
> they have probably not as powerful and grandiose as in the
> mythical ages though.
>
> I think that Mokato's ambition was to rule everything in the
> Gods Cycle empire of Govmeranen.
>

IIRC, Jesolo fought against Debaday in Pamaltela and founded his Empire in 1st Age East Isles. Govmeranen maybe not suitable for making appropriate role if I succeed to grasp the concept of "Empire" correctly.

> > I don't know theistic worship
> > to Island God Hobimarong, Dream Magic of Awaking Magicians and Greg
> > Stafford's Pantheon of Mysticism. Three Sages of Mokato.
>
> I don't think dream magic is important in Mokato. I think worship
> of Hobimarong is (and was) most common, but that the Mokatans
> have a great respect for mystics (as witnessed by the three sages).
> I think the mystic connection and the three sages contributed
> greatly to the benevolent nature of the Mokato empire. I think
> all Mokato ships had mystics with them when they spread the
> empire. The mystics calmed both the Mokatans and the natives they
> visited and thus contributed to the peaceful expansion of the
> empire.
>

But I expect more Bloodshedding....

> I think that there was never a king or emperor in Mokato, only
> a Grand Steward, who acted as a stand-in for Govmeranen, the
> perfect mystic ruler. Like Govmeranen, the Grand Stewards
> ruled by example, not by force.

King and emperor are both Europian Terms. Perhaps RW east parallels is more suitable.
> ____________________________________________________________


End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #561


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