Kralori and Dragonewts

From: Peter Metcalfe <>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 22:17:25 +1200

Alex Ferguson:

> > Both the Kralori and the Dragonewts believe that Dragons made the world
> > and that to become a dragon is the ultimate spiritual goal.

>To be more precise, for the Kralori the ultimate goal is to become
>one with the Cosmic Dragon.

Which is the same thing, hence: "The ultimate goal of Kralori mysteries is to become a dragon, a transcendent being who is far beyond mortal comprehension" Glorantha: Intro p188.

>Most Kralori aren't really trying to do this directly,

Which is no surprise as I never hinted that they did.

>and even those that are are not, as a rule, becoming
>a manifest dragon as a way station to this goal.

There is no distinction between becoming a dragon and becoming one with the Cosmic Dragon. If you are a dragon, you are with the Cosmic Dragon. As for manifestation, it is virtually synonymous in Kralorela with realization. If you are a fully manifested dragon, then you are with the Cosmic Dragon. Hence all visible draconic manifestations in Kralorela are partial.

>The [Kralori and the newts] are therefore dissimilar in the basic
>appearance that dragonewts tend to roam around doing strange things,
>and after some great length of time, turn into dragons and are
>seemingly happy to stay that way,

I realize that. That's why I said that the Kralori and the Dragonewts have different paths to the ultimate goal.

>while the kralori "dragon mystics"
>don't (in the normal course of events) turn into dragons, do so
>relatively briefly if they do, and do not express that as the ultimate
>goal of their practice.

The Kralori draconists do turn into dragons, the transformation is permanent and they do explicitly make it the ultimate goal of their practice. The RW parallel of draconic status is Buddhist enlightenment. So for the Kralori not to turn into dragons etc would be the equivalent of saying that Buddhists do not become enlightened, are enlightened briefly if they do become enlightened, and not to express enlightenment as the ultimate goal of their practice.

>How similar the 'newts are to the Kralori in their methods and
>ultimate objectives is something of a matter for speculation, since
>the 'newts in particular ain't saying.

Nonsense. The Dragonewt religion has been described in the Dragon Pantheon, Wyrms Footnotes #14 and the article is up at:

There we read of the Wyrm Ouroboros, the egg Orxili, the Grand Ancestral Dragon and the Six Ancestral Dragons. The names of the Ancestral Dragons are the same as that which appears in the Kralori calender (in the Glorantha Book) and a broad outline of how they are expected to live.

While it is flawed in that it makes Dragonewts too understandable, it still shows great commonalities between them and Kralori draconism.

>And what they are saying leads to more head-scratching
>than anything else.

In which case, how do _you_ explain the similarities between Kralori draconism and dragonewt religion if the dragonewts are incomprehensible and the Kralori are not? That was the question posed and it was the question that I provided an answer for. Your quibbles don't even begin to address this. Even if you didn't like my answer, you could have quite easily posted your answer.

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