Longevity and Immortality

From: TERRA INCOGNITA <inarsus-ferilt-z_at_mrg.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 01:23:50 +0900

Longevity and Immortality of Malkioni and Mostali

 Peter Metcalph wrote very good and logical explanation for Monotheists. My Illogical Brain and Weak English skill perhaps requires more time to absorb the all meaning of his teaching of Wisdom.

 The Enigma of Immortality for Monotheists is still the major culprit which prevents me from understanding. Some of Malkioni Heroes (Both of Ancient and Modern (Like Gundreken, Gaiseron and Theoblanc) Gloranthans) gained Longevity than ordinary people.

 But they seem not to spend immmortality as that of Mostali and Brithini Sense, and and it seems their longevity is regarded as their virtue to Invisible God by their supporters, and accused by enemies regarded as user of Evil Immortality Spell (or even worse) Soul-sucking Dark Sorcery similar to Tapping (or eating magical oyster..). They usually retire to Other Side as "Saints" after their Lifework, and think Staying long in Material World is Brithini Vice.

 The Difference of True Mostali and Clay Mostali "Dwarves" is another spot to consider about. (I don't know Outside Feature Difference between True Creation of Mostali and Dwarves. If they seems same, problem is more difficult.) Some of True Mostali doesn't seem to lose Immortality even after Conducting Heretical Acts like Isidilan of Dwarfrun. In contrary, some heretical clays like Chark the Liberator seem to lose their physical body as heros of Theistic Culture. (At least I know Flintnail and Isidilian are "True" Mostali, but do you know about Golden Oversseer of Nida, Martalor the Blazing Forge, Iron Diamond Voice and Lord Angarko? And if Diamond Mostali eventually become "True" Mostali after their work would finish (after Worldmachine perfectly fixed) as my guess.)

 Some of Godlearner Sorcerors seems Holding much Longevity (like Argalis and his rivel Halwal) but eventually fell to Destruction as much as their Empire. And MSE Seshnelan Emperors seems under the Ordinary Men's Lifelimit. Why they didn't want to longevity as RW Chinese Emperors or Tolkien's Numenorians?

"What a Agony! We found Solace and Joy were Illusion as Zzabur said! We succumbs to despair! (Albert Camus-style Existentialists?) We cannot die only by ourselves, we will commit suicide with whole world! Destroy our World!"

 Brithini was most Important Case to analyze this Tragedy (?). GS still don't revealed the detail why Malkion abandoned Danmalastan and his Beloved "Son" Zzabur. And I cannot find the term of "Vadel" in his Mythology of Danmalastan. We know at one point of History before Ice Waertag seems voluntarily abandoned idyllic? Danmalastan Life and became Half-Pagan and Ghost Worshippers with his famiry? What occured to them?

 The problem of role of "Satan" in the "Job" is often ignored by Gloranthaphiles, Polytheistic? relativism denies Monotheistic? absolutism. If Vadeli Vileness suspends their Immortality, they cannot do good acts without breaking their Taboo. I don't know Greg knows how to answer the orignal Difference of Vadeli and Brithini. (I think Brithini can be very evil as Vadeli to others.) Maybe Vadeli chose Evil rather than Brithini "Good" for immortality in some stage of History and was punished for that. (I saw Greg's Note about Spolite Arts and Architectures were very short...it hints something.) Always "Chaos" was Bad Guys for Glorantha. But Gloranthan Relativism itself breaks this Simple beauty.

> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:26:14 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> Subject: God Learnerism
> Terra Incognita:
> > > The God Learners believed in Makan, the One Mind and Hrestol's
> > > Joy seems to be incompatible with this.
> >I cannot say I understand it.
> >[snipped Greg quote]
> >I cannot say I understand all of Greg's statements, but Orthodox Malkioni
> >stresses importance of both Malkion and Hrestol. And Abridged Version
> >Abiding Book is still "Holy" Book for modern New Fronelan Hrestoli. Would
> >you try to analyze my confused idea and put in order my brain?
> There was another myth of the month (miscalled Malkioni Otherworld)
> that painted the relationship differently. But rather than retype
> that I'll give my understanding and let Greg make the necessary
> corrections (if he feels so inclined).

Yes, but it was too brief for me.

> Firstly, I'll make the distinction between public worship of God
> and higher understandings of him. Public worship is what normal
> Malkioni do when they go to church (sing badly, sleep through the
> sermon etc). Higher understandings are what the devout Malkioni
> use to become closer to God and thus more powerful (although they
> don't think of it this way). Hrestol's Path of Knighthood is a
> Higher Understanding and perhaps its refinements established by
> Talor and Gerlant. Higher Understandings should be distinguished
> from Saints and Ideals* although discoverers of HUs can be saints
> or Ideals.


> The entity that all Malkioni worship publicly has been since
> the writing of the Abiding Book, the Invisible God.
> The Abiding Book also describes the way to know (or to become)
> a HU called Makan, the One Mind. The Malkioni unites his
> consciousness with Makan and becomes capable of answering any
> question with the benefit of God's omniscience (the answers
> given can differ from answerer to answerer and so the Jrusteli
> invented a Truth Contest to sort out which answer was more
> correct). Makan was the Highest HU of God that the God Learners
> knew of.

IIRC, their style to ask questions to Other Side Entities first appeared in the one article of Wyrm's Footnote. But that was applied to "Pagan" Demons rather than God. (Or even foreign gods are tiny face of True Sole God?)

> The God Learners produced a short version of the Abiding Book that
> only contained the way to know Makan. This is the Sharp Abiding
> Book. It is still used by both the Loskalmi and the Seshnegi
> although they impose strict conditions on who may practice it
> and when questions may be asked.

I feel difficulty to translate the meaning of "Sharp" into Japanese.

> Kionvara, the Right Power, is described in the Malkioni Otherworld
> myth as being "a popular way to exploit foreigners" which is a bit
> odd since it was used at the very beginning to liberate rather
> than exploit. I think it's really a HU of God that the Jrusteli
> discovered (with Makan's aid) for their Crusaders to know so they
> could become better Soldiers for God. Perhaps the God Learners
> used it later on as a cheap way of creating garrison troops that
> could cow pagans with one hand tied behind their backs. In the God
> Learner scheme of things, Kionvara was an emanation from Makan.

If I can understand your sentence of this part correctly, it can be applied to the article of Crusade Ritual Magic in Tales #13 which Arkat abused against Tanisorians. But I manage to recall they gradually lost the power to use Crusade...

> The Zanbandan of the Inflamers is a form of Public Worship rather
> than a Higher Understanding. It might have been potent in that
> its worshippers were capable of better magic than ordinary Malkioni
> but it deviated from the Abiding Book and so was heretical.

Caladra & Aurelion, Wachaza, Zistor, Trickster Temple, etc...?

> As for Joy, Greg's put out numerous confusing signals in the
> glorantha: intro and elsewhere. As far as I can make out,
> Hrestol called down Joy from God that transformed portions
> of the Ideal Plane into being able to project magic onto
> the Mundane plane without the need to contact it. So instead
> of the Ideal Plane magics being only accessible through
> following the Ideals, Saints can project blessing and curses
> down to the ordinary Malkioni and their enemies.

Confused....Shamanic Practice....Greg uses Subconscious rather than Conscious...
We must try to understand his sentence.

> IMO the God Learners with their understanding of Makan saw
> the Saints as worthy only of ordinary Malkioni as their
> understanding of God was better than any Saint. This
> hubris might have lead to their destruction as the Saints
> survived but the God Learners did not.

Or they despaired but Ghosts still can dream.

> The strictest Rokari think that Makan is the highest version
> of God but have recognized that their toleration of Saints
> was an error. Saints in their opinion are a pollution of
> the Ideal plane created by "clever but flawed spells" Glorantha:
> Intro p52). They seek to reverse this pollution.

So if they can, they try to erase Saints?

> The Loskalmi worship Irensavel, the Hidden Mover. Originally
> it was publicly worshipped according to a liturgy created
> by Tomaris in the Dawn Age and also required moral action and
> behavior. This was suppressed when the God Learners bought the
> Abiding Book to Fronela but re-emerged as a HU when the God
> Learners were expelled.

IIRC, Syranthir also worshiped Irensavel, but Carmanos slightly changed this Concept to Carmanianistic Dualism. (Enclosure). I think this connection is similar to RW Gnosticism (Manichaesm) and Zoroastrianism.

> Irensavel is so high that he is only contactable by Loskalmi
> wizards using Makan as an intermediary. As a result of this
> contact, they have issued a code of ethics and actions that must
> be followed by everyone to keep them in Irensavel's Good Book.
> The doctrine of Irensavel allows to the Loskalmi to use other
> means of knowing God, whether it be through the Saints, the
> Ideals or through Higher Understandings. Sorcery is incompatible
> with Irensavel's doctrines and so condemned.

 I got impression Modern Loskalmi seems very tolerant to Pagan Worship in many Reaching Moon publications. But maybe Sorceror Knight and GS Schedule, and Metcalphism will slightly changed to Strictism...it's hard for we RW Pagans...

 Can you extend your Idea about difference between modern Castle Coast Worship and Modern New Hrestoli? They are originally survivors of MSE and are in a sense living witnesses of Public Worship in Seshnela of Imperial Age.

> *Ideals - what I think the Malkioni had before they had saints.
> Talar was an ideal ruler, Zzabur the Ideal Sorcerer. It's much
> difficult than Saintly magic although weaker versions of the
> Ideals (the Symbols?) are contactable on the spell plane.

I should read more Hero Wars Rule about Sorcery.

> - --Peter Metcalfe

End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #565

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