>Alex Ferguson:
>>Again, aside from your Lego blocks, what basis do you have for this
>>contention?
>The Runes
>Runes are the building blocks of Glorantha. They are
>the symbols, archetypes, embodiments, and actual matter
>or energy of the mundane world. [...]
>The powers of the Great Runes are universally acknowledged.
>The deities who command those runes are the Greater Gods.
>Those deities cannot be changed without altering the very
>fabric of the Cosmos.
>RQ3 Book 5 p12.
>Since the great deities cannot be changed,
Oh, but they can be changed. Doing so does change the fabric of the Cosmos, but such changes occur every 600 years or so.
>it follows that they cannot be replaced.
Of course they can be replaced. Orlanth is a real candidate for replacement, and there is nothing in KoS to indicate that he wasn't replaced.
[similar quote snipped]
>HW:RiG p110
>The same basic idea of the Runes as the building blocks of glorantha
>is there. Thus I make no apologies for relying on basic gloranthan
>cosmology to infer statements about Great Gods.
Fact is that the greatness of gods has changed before, and will again. One of the themes of the Hero Wars is "who is going to be the Great God of Chaos". Obviously it is possible to establish Great Gods. The Lunar efforts indicate that it is possible to disestablish Great Gods. It takes more than a bunch of Sylilans saying so.
But it was possible for the Bright Empire Orlanthi to almost replace Orlanth by Tarumath. So if the Sylilan "Odayla is the Great God of Storm, and the Bear/Hunter is his favourite shape" was backed by an experienced army of heroquesters, then the Heortlings would be in the process of redefining their Great Storm God into more of a bear shape than they used to.
Peter claims that Odayla has no Storm powers. In Heortling myth, the Odaylan storm powers are downplayed. He is one of the Thunder Brothers, thus he has his own wind/storm, and can do some manner of windy thing. However, when the Theyalan missionaries entered Sylila in the Dawn Age, they found deep secrets of their Heortling Orlanth in the Sylilan rites. This indicates more of a "runic identity" than the runic descriptors used by the Heortlings give away.
>>>Furthermore the Sylilans are not Odaylings, they also worship the Iron
>>>Ram and a number of other gods.
>>I believe I'm not asserting that "the Sylilans are Odaylings", but
>>rather, "some Sylilans at some historical epoch have been >>Odaylings", in
>>the cultural god sense.
>It should have read the Sylilans are not "just" Odaylings.
Sure, the Sylilans have experienced Theyalan and Lunar missionaries, Sairdite dog folk rulership, and have been inside the Dara Happan as well as the Carmanian empire and cosmology for a while. They have left behind much of their Dawn Age Odayling culture, and are different now. Less savage, which may well mean currently less true to their Odayling culture than in earlier times.
But then everybody would have judged the EWF era Heortlings similarly...
>>>Orlanth worship in the Lunar Empire? I doubt it very much. I
>>>don't think the Lunars are stupid enough to allow the worship
>>>of Orlanth-as-Odayla within the Empire and I do know from the
>>>example of shared cults, that gloranthans have a pretty good
>>>idea of who they are worshipping.
>>It's clear, surely, that I did not say "Orlanth-as-Odayla".
>You did say "part-identified" with Orlanth himself
Which is true the other way around. Since the Lunars can prove that Orlanth also is Odayla the Star Bear, they have already proof that Orlanth can be a servant of the Goddess. If Orlanth's Greatness is what stands in the way of overcoming Orlanth, why not try and transfer the Greatness?
>>He's a different god, whom one might regard as stemming from
>>a similar/"the same" transcendent power.
>Since when does Odayla have storm powers (the transcendent power
>in question)?
Every Storm Brother has some sort of Storm Power. Odayla as Storm Brother has a personal wind he can summon and ride to Orlanth's stead. He is part of the Storm Brother collective, although only rarely.
Heortling Odayla doesn't exhibit any storm power subcult. I bet the Sylilans have at least a default subcult with just these storm powers included in the magic.
Now the question arises if one culture's subcult rune can be another culture's main rune for a deity, or whether these deities can be considered identical for practical reasons.
(Which leads to a form of Dendara with air powers called Entekos which had to be proven not to be a form of the Red Goddess...)
>Merely because he is Orlanth's son does not mean
>that he stems from the same power. Otherwise Umath would be a
>fire god by your reckoning.
Umath could very well have taken over from (whichever form of) Lodril, another merger of Sky and Earth (and violence).
Alex Ferguson replying to
>Julian Lord:
>>To clarify, 'this' in my mind = "changes in the number and/or roster
>>and/or nature [and/or whatever it was (precisely) that Alex was proposing
>>when he first mentioned Odayla] of Glorantha's Prime Runes and/or their
>>Owners"
>None of the above, really. I specifically was asserting (or giving
>vent to my convention-addled understanding...) that Odalya was
>the Great God of the Sylilans _in the cultural sense_ (he's the
>means by which they understand the secrets of existence, he's the
>male path god, etc).
Being a male path god doesn't make a god a great god, but I agree that being the means of understanding the universe is a good indication of a link to a (the) Great Secret of Glorantha.
>I certainly amn't setting about constructing
>an "Odalya Core Rune", which would figure in certain other definitions of
>"Greater God", specifically say the RQ3:Bk5 one. ("Must have own High Rune
>and be prepared to travel.")
"Newborn applicants with 6 mythic cycles working experience preferred."
I wonder whether any God Learner (or other Imperial Age Gloranthan in a position to judge) reckoned Sedenya in whichever form a Great Goddess. It appears possible that a Great God may be lying low-profile for ages.
End of The Glorantha Digest V8 #566
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