Great Gods

From: Julian Lord <julian.lord_at_wanadoo.fr>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:09:30 +0200


Peter :

> >I think that there's a confusion of issues here. Whether or not specific
> >gods have or not actual links or identification with specific FoHDs is
> >separate from the Great God-ification of the FoHDs themselves.
>
> No, it is not.

I think so.

> Alex thinks that it's best to consider the Great
> Gods are "cultural conceptions" of the Forces of High Divinity
> (while presumably other gods are "cultural conceptions" of Forces
> of Divinities). I see no reason for having to make an explicit
> distinction between Great Gods and FoHDs, thus the possibility
> that a God might replace a Great God does not arise.

I understand, but I agree with Alex that sometimes (but only very, very rarely) a useful distinction can be made between the FoHDs and the GGs. Specifically, there are "bits" of each GG that do not appear to proceed from the FoHDs, frinstance various non-central myths about the GGs, various social rituals, various "cultural conceptions", and even various magical powers not proceeding from the deity's core FoHD-ness.

OTOH the GGs are not pure manifestations of the FoHDs ; and I mean this not in the senses that you have already pointed out yourself, but rather that other gods than the GGs may be manifestations of "sections" of the FoHD that do not "belong" to the GGs. For instance, Gagarth and Urox control Storms that do not belong to Orlanth (the Storm GG). Elmal does not belong to Yelm.

Hence, the FoHDs are not IMO strictly the same thing as the GGs (although the GGs certainly *do* directly partake of/*are* generally confusable with the FoHDs and are not mere "cultural conceptions" of these Forces, unless one uses the word "cultural" in its rarefied psychoanthropological sense and the word "conception" in a similarly rarefied philosophical one).

BUT the fact that there are parts of each GG that are not mere manifestations of its FoHD and the fact that the GGs are incomplete manifestations of the FoHDs seems to suggest that the _real_ links of identification between the GGs and the FoHDs are not an inevitable consequence of FoHD-nature itself nor its Great God-ification, and is in fact a separate issue (although I must declare that there is a *very* slim dividing line here and that in 99% of practical cases I would agree with you, Peter ; more specifically, the GGs and FoHDs can only be considered as separate entities from a practical POV during those periods where the Devil is inside Glorantha, and/or the gods are at war. In 1620, the GGs and the FoHDs are NOT separate entities (except in the VERY limited sense given above), and divine cultural drift does NOT occur, contrary to Alex' suggestions).

> >That Yelmalio, Elmal, and Heler are not worshipped as GGs in HW era
> >Glorantha is irrelevant anyway. Yelmalio is a son and servant of the GG
> >Yelm anyway, and hardly a candidate for GG-hood because of this (unless
> >Yelm were to be destroyed - - not merely killed - during the Hero Wars).
>
> The question was whether Yelm's absence _in_ Sun County could
> allow the people of Sun County to elevate Yelmalio into a Great
> God. That is similar to what Alex suggested was the case for
> Odayla in Sylila.

And I agree with you that in normal circumstances this is impossible, but I believe that in exceptional (and extremely unlikely) ones (Gods' Wars et al) it is only "nearly impossible". The absence of the Yelm cult in Sun County isn't sufficient to elevate Yelmalio to GG-hood, because the Sun/Fire FoHD is actually and really controlled by Yelm. Only if this entity were killed or the world destroyed would the FoHD and accompanying GG-hood be up for grabs, or be removable from its current owner. Similarly Odayla in Sylila, reductio ad absurdum arguments about ursine shocktroopers notwithstanding.

> >Elmal, like Odayla, isn't the focus of worship for a great people.
>
> Sylila, the last time I looked, has a population of 400,000.
> Sartar, the last bastion of pure Heortling worship is only
> 180,000 strong (although one can count in Broyan's folks
> in Heortland and some of the Tarshites).

But Orlanth is also worshipped by Manirians, Umathelans, and Ralians. Quibble.

> So what does it
> take for a people to be great?

Gaining control of one of Glorantha's FoHDs ?

Julian Lord


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