From: Peter Metcalfe <>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 19:53:05 +1300

Stephen Tempest:

>Me>Or that a tribe of Pentans served one of the
> >Emperors against the Bird People (Entekosiad p60) and found themselves
> >in Saird as a reward (my speculation)?

>I do like this idea, although I don't think the Entekosiad actually
>specifies where the horsemen came from...

It implies it IMO. Eskarlavus is performing the First Muster ritual (cf GRAY p102). Gartemirus, the Pelandan King, comes from the NW, the "naked man [...] bearing sticks and stones" is a Zarkosite (Votanki) from the SE and the "man with a javelin and frog protection" is a Darjiinian from the SW. Since he is fighting Bird people, he cannot use Rinliddi as help from the northwest. Hence the "man upon a horse" is the replacement from the Northwest.

> >While the cause of the post-dawn northward Hyaloring migration
> >is unknown, it's far too early to be the result of Theyalan
> >expansion.

>Well, the mythical defeat of Kargzant by Orlanth was dated by
>Plentonius to the last quarter of the First Century ST.

But there was only _one_ Hyaloring migration from Saird, Vuranostum's. And the last quarter of the first century is still too early for the Theyalans to be forcing anybody northwards.

Jerome Blondel:

>Apparently, Gamara, the nurturing goddess of Nivorah, was unlucky enough
>to be assimilated with Hippoi, for because of this she ended up in the
>Fourth Hell among the tortured victims whereas Reladivus is still lording
>among the big shots. That's quite unfair, because he did far worse: he
>married Elmal!!

Things are getting mixed up here. The source for Gamara in the fourth hell is the Plentonic commentary on the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall was inscribed sometime in the Golden Age, i.e. well before the Sairdites got horses. So how could Gamara in the fourth hell then? A much better explanation is that Plentonius not knowing who figure IV-18 was, identified her with Gamara to defame the horse people just as he makes identifies Orlanth and Valind with IV-20 to mock the Orlanthi.

> >The Hyal disappeared because the Hyalorings [of Saird] no longer kept
> >their pure horse taboos - herding cattle was one easy way to do this.

>Yet Saird is the only place where hyal were still to be found at the Dawn.

I know. I was however talking about their disappearance after the Dawn.

>Despite this, KoS (The Battle of Alavan Argay) implies that all Pentans
>were Pure Horse people before the Gongarilli's emergence. So why did the
>Pentan hyal degenerate first?

There are a number of possible reasons. My own thinking is that the Pentan Hyalorings survived on Pent as the Pure Horse People until they were forced south by General Kastok's campaigns. When they arrived in Prax and Dragon Pass, they already had herds of hyals.

Although the Pentan Hyalorings had survived the darkness, they were not the only Pentans to do so. Other Pentan tribes had long ridden lesser steeds (the Ten False Steeds of Anaxial's Roster), that had appeared during the struggles in the Darkness. Although weaker than the Hyal, the lesser steads had their own strengths and weaknesses and the ritual taboos were less strict.

All was nice and cosy between the Pure Horse and the other Pentans until the appearance of cattle herds on the plains. The Pure Horse saw this as a violation of their ritual taboos but other tribes did not. And so the stage was set for war...

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