From: Peter Metcalfe <>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:01:19 +1300

Jerome Blondel:

>Me>That doesn't follow. If Gamara doesn't come from Nivorah, then the
> >figure of IV-18 can still be a Nivorah goddess.

>That means a goddess was worshipped in Nivorah/Saird with connections that
>were inacceptable to the Dara Happans even then (that's not too difficult:
>rebellious tendencies frx)

No. IV-18 is depicted as a tortured goddess not because she is being punished for furture misdeeds but because she is worshipped as a tortured goddess (like Gerra or Rashorana). If she wasn't worshipped, then she wouldn't be on the wall.

>If Gamara is from Saird, then IV-18 is probably her. She wasn't
>necessarily a horse goddess when the Wall was made. It's Godtime,
>gods can conquer new powers.

No. Firstly Gamara is not on the Wall because she doesn't come from Saird. The Hyalorings who did come from Saird worshipped Hippoi instead (and Plentonius does not bother placing her on the Wall). If the horse people come from Saird, why is it that the most direct migration (Vuranostum) worships an entirely different spirit altogether and that the Gamara-worshipping Jenarong have no mythical knowledge of ever having come from Saird?

Secondly the gods do not change all that much. All gods worshipped on the Wall are still around in some similar form or another. It stretches things to posit that a tortured goddess somehow becomes a horse goddess.

>Some Gamara myth synopsys, told from a local perspective: 'When
>Emperor Manarlavus came to Nivorah to build his roof, Reladivus
>lackey of the Emperor said yes, but we said no, we won't let
>ourselves be encapsulated into your golden prison, and Gamara
>sided with us, and we prevailed. When the ice came, Reladivus
>was crushed, but Gamara was changed into a horse and came with us.'

That isn't the Gamara myth because it presupposes that the Plentonic account is true. Since Plentonius's account on the origin of horses is confused and contradicts what we know elsewhere, I don't see much point in following it.

>Then she can become a horse-goddess for the horse-people in
>Dara Happa, an alternative to the Hippoi spirit cult, so that
>Jenarong builds temples to her and so on.

Why do we have to have Gamara coming from Saird for this to happen?

>She can still be worshipped today by theist types, though she
>would be relegated to the borders for the Dara Happans have
>come up with their own myth since then. Cf. The Unspoken Word
>#1 p. 37.

Why would the Dara Happans come up with their own myth for her since the GRAY represents their understanding of where Gamara came from (and is about as accurate as the Romans being descendents of the Trojan Aenas?).

>The Heavenly Ride heroquest suggests she traveled through Saird,
>Zarkos and then came to Dara Happa where her worshippers spread
>horsemanship among the nobles (but not the commoners).

The Heavenly Ride says that her quest started of by avoiding the Wild Dogs. Dogwood is shown in the late Vingkotling Age in TR p148 as being to the northwest of Kerofinela and inhabited by Votanki Hunters. From there it is but a short trip to Zarkos where the goat-worshippers are - the next step on the Heavenly Ride. So it seems far more likely to me that Gamara started out in Votanki land rather than Saird.

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