Re: Volsaxar

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:26:07 +0000


First off, I tried to encourage my local dealer to stock HW by buying the official stuff from them, but their distributors didn't even list BA. Hence I'm not quite sure about the latest official word, given the enormous changes the material undergoes from manuscripts to publication. I'll use Terra's collection to address all discrepancies...

TERRA INCOGNITA
> "Here are reports on debates still in progress."
> Heortland Population is 500,000. (In Old Genertela Box Set) (Sartar: 180,000
> and Tarsh: 360,000) See the comparison of scale in Unspoken Word Tarsh!

> If Heortland Territorial Map is similar to 14C Holy Roman Empire feudal
> structure, maybe each effort to reach consequence will come to vain and I
> should go to bed before such map (more Complicated than Modern Ralios!)
> makes my simple brain discharged.

Personally I prefer Anglo-Saxon Britain for the parallel, and all the variation from Penda to Aethelred tossed together over territorial rather than temporal distribution.

> At least, Volsaxar is a part of Heortland surrounding Whitewall.

Thunder Rebels defines Volsaxar as Heortland north of Jansholm.

> In Tradetalk #4 p. 17, Four Large "Tribes" (on the comparison of Sartari
> Tribes) share Whole Heortland. Hendriki, Solthni, Minthings and Bandori.

That has been renamed in Thunder Rebels. I've been convinced since that riverine names aren't quite the hallmark of Heortling tribes or confederations. Mountains are more like it...

> It seems Volsaxi is part of Hendriki or a "baywindow" of Hendriki.

Sort of. Hendriki (or Hendreiki) have outgrown any normal size for tribes or even tribal confederations during the roughly 1200 years of their history starting as refugee bnd. That's why I call them "nation". This means they have a language of their own (or had until the emigration of the Quivini and Vendref), different local deities, holy days and historical heroes, and different foreign influences intruding into their customs.

The Quivini are a "back to the roots" movement with IMO about as much historical authenticity as the Rokari, i.e. they constructed a historical model from what information they had.

Compare the pre-EWF situation (one large tribe, the Orgorvaltes, occupying the entire Quivin region from the River to Prax) with even the first wave immigration following the Colymar which saw several new tribes (the survivors into the time of Sartar were the Torkani, Culbrea, Dundealos, Malani, Balmyr) of pre-Dawn size.

Of course the Sartarites claim that their tribes are standard size, and Thunder Rebels describes the Sartarites first and foremost.

> (And we should consider the term differentiating about Major "Tribe"
> and "Minor" tribe by the scale of population.)

I tend to make this an issue of organisation and "traditions". Elements of Alakoring or Andrini customs pervade this.

> In Thunder Rebels p52-53, it seems Four Major tribes share Heortland.
> Volsaxings, Jondalar, Hurlant, Esvularing.

Four "major tribes" which account for (my estimate) 80% of the population.

These tribes appear to be of "original Heortling" size, given that two tribes (Penentelli and Vestantes) shared all of Aggar, and one tribe all of the Quivin Hills (Orgorvaltes). Organisation must be different from "Sartarite Heortling standard".

> And in Barbarian Adventure p.8, Volsaxar "Major" tribe is divided to four
> minor Tribes, Volsaxi (makes the problem difficult for the same name of
> "Major" tribe), Bacofi, Curtali, Sylangi.

Another recent change - previously the Bacofi, Curtali and Sylangi formed
the Volsaxi tribal confederation.

> And there is Kitori.

The Kitori are mostly outside of the general picture. It is even dubious whether they are counted among the human population or among the troll population (Troll Woods included in Shadow Plateau, in Uz Lore).

Peter Metcalfe's answer to Terra Incognita:

>>The Volsaxi are part of the Hendreiki tribe but reject the Pharaoh.

Most recently (i.e. Sartar's - Jarosar's reigns, until Tarkalor entered the picture) because the Pharaoh encouraged the Kitori to block the trade route through the Marzeel Valley, which they did (among other things) by exacting tribute from the Heortlings of the valley.

>>The other Hendreiki tribes accept the Pharaoh and so Heortland has >>two kings.

Given the "well-defined" terms "king" or even "high king" and "tribe", I hesitate to fix the number of kings of or in Heortland.

> In Barbarian Adventures, p. 9, High King Hardrard the Green took up
> residence in Whitewall against the Pharaoh and King of Heortland.

Whitewall lies conveniently close to the officially unclaimed lands of Dragon Pass.

>>Most of the Pharaonic Heortlanders are not Aeolians (despite what
>>Thunder Rebels says, that's primarily abuse) but Andrini Orlanthi.
>>Their customs are changed from their old Heortling ways but they
>>still worship Orlanth.  The Aeolians are a separate minority with
>>similar social customs to the Andrini but their worship practices
>>are vastly different.

Which is saying that their "sacrifices" are of a symbolic nature mimicing their neighbours blood (and value) sacrifices with bakery products as a material component to their veneration. People without means to recognize the magical exchanges might confuse Aeolian rites with Andrini rites. (Masloi sailors, for instance...)

>>When the Pharaoh was alive, Heortland was the land of Storm.  For
>>this reason, Storm Worship was preferred in Heortland rather than
>>Aeolian sorcery.  Hence although the Andrini adopted Malkioni
>>customs, great care was taken to see that their worship wasn't
>>subverted.  Since the Aeolians were strongest in the south,
>>the local Esvularings changed the most while the Jondalarings
>>changed only a little and the Volsaxi not at all.

As important is the fact that the higher up any Hendriki live in the Storm Mountain valleys, the less "malkionized" are the clans. The high valley clans in Esvularing territories aren't much different from average Volsaxi or Sartarite clans. Whether they are reckoned Esvularings or independent might be a tax issue, but then the high valleys aren't regular tax payers.

>>I don't believe that the Volsaxi "rebellion" (which is over
>>a century old from what I've heard) was a period of constant
>>fighting.  I think it was more of a case of intermittent
>>conflict with only one or two serious attempts to subdue the
>>Volsaxi.  At the time of the Pharaoh's disappearance, I like
>>to think there was some sort of truce.

Scorpion Queen Gagix Twobarbs and her offspring might be one reason for a decrease in conflict. The Footprint chaotics have built up their strength for some time, and with the Wolf Pirate menace the kingdom's attention was turned to the previously peaceful coastal regions.

> King Bryan evacuates the City of Wonder to Harrek. What's the meaning
> of it?

After the Battle of Pennel Ford, Broyan has been accepted as a (the) protector of Kethaela by many. This may have given him access to the access rites to the capital. While the 1616 raid was devastating to Kethaela as a naval power, the capital escaped the depredations of 1624. (The events of the Gunda story by Phyllis Ann Karr in Gloranthan Visions, p.10)

Me:

>>The Hendreiki "tribe" should be called a nation - even its four tribes
>>are the size of a federation of tribes under a prince/warlord in
>>ordinary Orlanthi terms.

> Perhaps, you want to use terms in the folders / directories for make this
> matter simple.
> Kingdom > Nation > Tribe > Clan
> In Introduction to HW, Pharaoh forced Heortlanders to use Marches and
> Barons, Earls. Maybe they stopped using them after JarEel killed Pharaoh...

The Pharaoh forced the majority of the Heortlanders to take part in his sixfold structure. The names for the offices were borrowed from the (resident) Malkioni, the contents were similar enough but still heavily infused with Heortling meanings.

> > > The other Hendreiki tribes accept the Pharaoh and so Heortland has
> > > two kings.
>
> >Volsaxar itself is somewhat undefined. The 30,000 Volsaxi of the three
> >Whitewall tribes are only a third of the Heortling population of
> >Volsaxar. They have a tribal confederation similar to the Sartarite city
> >rings, probably thanks to Tarkalor's meddling with the trolls. The
> >southern inhabitants of Volsaxar might be centered on Smithstone (I
> >assume that this is a city about the size of Backford) and Karse, as
> >much as Heortlings can be said to be centered on a place.
> >The Whitewall Volsaxi rebelled against the Kitori domination (which may
> >have been imposed by the Pharaoh).

> I am confused. Firstly, in BA, four "minor" tribes share Whitewall.

I used the term "Volsaxi" for the three Whitewall tribes (Sylangi, Bacofi, Curtali), in accordance with all earlier publications. Already back in 1996, Jeff Richard and I discussed a fourth, larger tribe further
south as Broyan's home, but that suggestion didn't meet much approval.

> And secondly, 30,000 is maybe too large for the Sartarite standard,

30,000 was to be the citizens of Whitewall plus the tribespeople of the Sylangi, Bacofi and Curtali.

> even Boldhome residents are only 11,000 and even if you means the
> "City Ring" currently under the seige of Lunars, there are no
> supporter tribes outside of wall of the "city"....

Compare e.g. Jonstown with the three adjacent tribes. Quiviniland has three city confederations (Wilmskirk, Jonstown, Swenstown) each of which accounts for roughly one quarter of the population (roughly 120,000 in Quiviniland, not counting 60,000 of Far Point and Donalf Flats, the last quarter of the Quivini made up by Colymar, Lismelder, Torkani who are outside of any city rings), and Whitewall is similar in size and importance. Most likely less organized.

The Siege of Whitewall certainly cuts off the surrounding tribes, but Broyan has taken the assembled tribal warband with him when he evaded the brunt of Fazzur's invasion army.

> I don't know well about Ancient Military (maybe
> Martin Laurie knows it, the Last Stage of Gallia War of Caesar in Alesia?)
> But IMHO, I think Bruan can not hold even 3,000.

Broyan has the mobilized army of these 30,000 (3,000 is a good guess) plus whatever support and own followers he has from southern Volsaxar.

To start with, the Lunar siege belt is a lot less tight than the Romans' in Gallia, and I suppose that the majority of the local boys will have returned to their families despite Lunar patrols and light fortifications. Jorkandros Blinder was preparing for a quick rush of Whitewall rather than a systematic encapsuling siege, and put his effort in offensive siege engineering (towers, rams, catapults, etc). Any local boy leaving the city made that task easier, although the general order still would have been to decimate these renitent barbarians.

> Thirdly, Kitori, Tarkalor
> and Phalaoh's allegiance might be easily switched in such "Warring State
> Period". I think I should reread King of Sartar and how the actual situation
> of Whitewall Seige should be, though there is always magic in Glorantha.

RQ Adventures #4 describes a gameable scenario for the siege (apart from a number of assumptions which don't agree with other descriptions). I agree with John Castellucci that the Argan Argar traders of the Troll Woods are perfectly suited as blockade breakers through troll tunnels. The Whitewall Lanbrili (the Safe Crackers) with their Krarsht connections
might be another source for subterranean exit and access to the besieged city.

Alex Ferguson

>> Now that's just adding to my confusion...  BA seems to imply the
>> the "Volsaxi" are different from the Sylangi, etc, but I didn't
>> understand it in the above manner at all. So basically you're saying
>> there are about 9 large V. tribes, occupying all of "lowland"
>> Heortland?  (Pardon my hand-waving, most of the relevant material
>> is at home in a large "tomorrow night's game" pile.)

Without knowing this section of BA, I said that the known Whitewall tribes which up to BA have been collectively called the Volsaxi cannot be the only ones, and from what has been quoted at me this assumption has been correct.

If Broyan's Volsaxi are one huge Vingkotling rite tribe, there's no need for 9 Sartarite-sized tribes. I don't think that Karse or Smithstone
have much similarity with a Sartarite city wrt government.

>>> The Whitewall Volsaxi rebelled against the Kitori domination >>> (which may have been imposed by the Pharaoh).

Alex:
>> Not by the OOO?

I don't think so - the Hendreiki seem to have been allies rather than subjects of the OOO. Before the Pharaoh, the trolls had all of Kerofinela
for their playground, and while I do think that the Kitori controlled Whitewall sufficiently that there was a constant Argan Argar presence, the blockade of all trade into Quiviniland prior to Tarkalor's war has been described as a hostile reaction to Sartar's bid for independence (Wyrm's Footnotes #6, not entirely reproduced in Wyrm's Footprints).

Terra:
> It seems Trolls should have good realtionship to their kin.

The same could be said about Heortlings. So where were the Volsaxi volunteers during Kallyr's Rebellion?

> And what about the relationship between the Trollish Demigod and
> Volsaxi before Pharaoh came?
> Historically, Heort was a friend of OOO...but "No one can make
> me anything."

I guess that as close neighbours their relationship was somewhat strained. But the same goes for practically all neighbourhood relations...

Me:
>>>The Hendreiki "tribe" should be called a nation

Peter Metcalfe:
>> The biggest organization that the Orlanthi know of is a kingdom, >> not a nation.

Exactly. The Hendreiki aren't an organisation unit, they are some sort of greater common denominator for the four tribes which are the majority group in the kingdom of Heortland.

"Kingdom" is a term which has been applied for anything superior to an Orlanthdar rites tribe.

>> And tribe is perfectly alright in that it's
>> traditional and not used at any other level by the Heortlanders
>> themselves.

"Four large tribes"... is used at one level below "Hendriki". If you prefer to use conflicting terms, ok, but then how do you call the organisational state of the Esvularings or Jondalarings?

>>>Volsaxar itself is somewhat undefined. The 30,000 Volsaxi of the three
>>>Whitewall tribes are only a third of the Heortling population of
>>>Volsaxar.

>> I do not believe that the Volsaxi number a quarter of the >> kingdom's population.

Neither do I, but if you compare the area of the southern three tribes to Tarsh, you get a much higher population density if you depopulate the Smithstone region.

The "four large tribes" in the publications refers to an unpublished map/table which quantifies the population of Heortland, and that has 100,000 Hendriki north of Jonstown.

>> Secondly there are four tribes in Vosaxiland as can be seen from:

>>    Volsaxiland designates the area around Whitewall,
>>    whose tribes (the Volsaxi, plus the tiny Bacofi,
>>    Curtali and Sylangi) formed the Volsaxar
>>    confederation.
>>            Barbarian Adventures p8

>>    The Bacofi once ruled wide lands.  King Hroar
>>    helped the Empire when they invaded because he
>>    wished to reclaim lands that the Volsaxi had
>>    seized from him.
>>            BA p8

Thanks for the quotations. As I said above, this is roughly what I've been working with all the while, only that I did not include the southern Marzeel valley in the Whitewall confederation.

>> They are also shown as living to the Southwest of Whitewall
>> along the Marzeel River according to the map on p5 of the
>> same.  In addition, the unknown population of the Kitori
>> should also be included in the Heortland population.

Yep - roughly 100,000 for each tribe, leaving 100,000 for Pelaskite coastal settlements, Kitori "humans", conquered parts of God Forgot and the Praxian Marches.

>>>They have a tribal confederation similar to the Sartarite city >>>rings, probably thanks to Tarkalor's meddling with the trolls.

>> The government of the Volsaxar is based on the Kingship rituals
>> of Vingkot as the ultra-traditionalist Broyan worships all three
>> subcults of Vingkot (TR p6).  They also predate Tarkalor AFAIK
>> so the statement in KoS p196 is not be the whole truth.

Well, Sartar did not invent the city organisation of Wilmskirk entirely out of the blue. He had experience with the Heortland cities. Since these have been based on Vingkotling and other rituals, some similarity appears to be in order.

> I don't have the English Edition King of Sartar...if "Zombie King"
> Andrin only holds the power to access City of Wonder, Bryan should
> usurp the power by some meaning.

Broyan had earned the power by defending Kethaela against the Lunar invasion at Pennel Ford, but lost it again when he paid Harrek.

> And in Introduction to HW p. 142, before Pharaoh, the High
> King was selected from Larnsti Brotherhood.

The Larnsti Brotherhood was invented by Peter long after King of Sartar, so logically they cannot be mentioned in KoS. Most of the Kethaelan events are only recorded in KoS when either Fazzur or Argrath were involved.

I suppose that the Larnsti Brotherhood chose to select Broyan as High King when this was a means to regain influence. If that changed their rules or customs, so what - they aren't called Larnsti for any Stasis connections.

>>>The Whitewall Volsaxi rebelled against the Kitori domination (which >>>may have been imposed by the Pharaoh).

>> I don't think the Pharaoh whose stated aim was to free the
>> land from Darkness would have countenanced imposing his
>> subjects to the same force.

The Pharaoh was happy enough to blockade the direct trade via Whitewall into Sartar's new confederation when his former subject made the bid for High King of Dragon Pass. He did accept trade along the New River with the ducks as intermediates.

> I think Pharaoh used Aeolians to counter Black Arkati who survived the God
> Learner purge under the support of OOO. Pharaoh used many some kind of
> Malkioni Way, (I still think he is a some kind of successor of God
> Learners.) In Questline Ralios Setting, Aeolus was Arkat's Nicodemonic
> shrewd supporter...What the modern relation among Black Arkati, Aeolian, and
> God Forgoti? (I should reread Gwandorling Saga?)

Black Arkati are an abomination, or so the other Malkioni of Kethaela say.

The Aeolians don't even know half the truth, the Black Arkati say.

The God Forgotten with their Brithini beliefs (use the White Wizard "Zzabur Says" from Revealed Mythologies for their religion) but without the benefits even the Arolanit or Sog City Brithini earn are as different
from either group as Jews are from Muslims.

[Rikard]
Me:
>>>As king he did become head of the state church. Whatever his >>>personal agenda, his underlings took action on their own.

Peter:
>> What state church?

He can hardly have founded the Kingdom of New Malkonwal without one.

>> The Aeolian Church was not the state faith >> of Heortland in Pharaonic times, Orlanthi worship was.

Correct.

>> Secondly by declaring the Kingdom of Malkonwal, Rikard has gone 
>> beyond simply being the head of existing institutions or allowing 
>> his underlings free reign, he is instituting a reform from above.

Yes. But honestly, how much of a religious reformer will a mercenary adventurer be? His reform will be of a similar style as Henry VIII's disavowing of Roman Catholicism. Details in the rites, apart from naming the king as head of the church, will have been left to the clergy.

> And founded the City Malkonwal?

Not as a city, but as a kingdom.

> Perhaps he forced more his subjects by his homeland way...

As a charismatic leader, he will have attracted converts from the native populace. Not a mass conversion, but something the size of Argrath's Praxian Warrior societies (in the DP boardgame).

Jerome Blondel:

> According to TR p 237 (Vingkot High King), "Vingkot is the source
> of divine kingship (i.e., a dynastic practice)". However, next
> paragraph says "only the tribal kings can confer membership upon
> a high king". Does that mean that once Broyan has been chosen by
> the tribal kings of the Volsaxar, his children may claim kingship
> in virtue of High King Broyan being their ancestor?

Given the lack of mention of any prominent heir, this seems to be a theoretical problem. But then, any offspring of Broyan to pass all the Kingship tests would have been accepted as High King if his kingdom had lasted beyond 1630. Unless the hints in KoS (Minaryth Blue) are contradicted (roughly a 40% chance) one Argrath or the other gains control of Kethaela before the destruction of Muse Roost by Harrek (and subsequent death of Kallyr if your saga plays along this suggestion of KoS, which Greg has said at Tentacles is mostly up to you).

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