Re: Heortling Kingship

From: Joerg Baumgartner <jorganos_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:36:20 +0100


TERRA INCOGNITA
>And about the High Kingship, both Dar and Vingkot High King Subcult
>(Thunder Rebels) haven't concerned it, maybe the rite of true High Kingship
>was lost, (or did never exist or perfectly changed after the many
>cataclysm.) I think the rite was originally
>related to the bloodline of Vingkot and Kodig. (I think though the
>membership concept of Kodigvari in Gwandorling Saga may certainly a good
>idea, it will make difficult to explain about why they Esrolians eventually
>banished their kinfolk and didn't choose to Kingship.

It doesn't make much sense to write up a one-person cult, really.

I note that in the Dawn Age the High King of the Heortlings usually was not identical to the owner/holder of Kero Fin's Necklace. The title cannot have been "High King of the lands of the Heortlings" (parallel to the King of Dragon Pass).

[...]

>*Great Darkness
>Era of Rastagar
>Before or After, Heortling and Haranding fought for the territory >though
>both of them were Orlanthi and followed similar custom. I don't know well
>about the origin of other Orlanthi aside from Vingkotling, (though it seems
>many of them insisted the blood of the Great God.)

The Harandings were Dureving Orlanthi from Maniria.

But the origin story of the Orlanthi in Thunder Rebels (and Storm Tribe, Heler, the battle between Helerings and Vingkotlings which didn't take place) doesn't cover any Talastaring, Silylan or Ralian Orlanthi. One might argue that they weren't any of the three Great Orlanthi Peoples.

>*Silver Age
>Era of Heort
>Though they seems to have ruled much larger area than Heortlings of later
>Age, Great Darkness damaged greatly the population of them as their
>neighborhood other folks and demihumans. (Maybe sparsely populated (around
>thousands population? (TR) and many remnants of Great Darkness. I think
>that was similar size of modern Glorantha for population in each 17C
>Heortling
>tribes with very large territory.)

The survivors often started out of the Greater Darkness as clan-sized or sometimes even only stead-sized communities, but I tend to believe that all of these groups took in even more wretched survivors.

>*Dawn Age
>Era of Harandangian
>Much Conflict in Winter Tribes against Talastarings, I don't know what kind
>of custom was followed before Harmast in each of Sacred Times, (for Harmast
>started the Lightbringer's Quest in the modern form.)

I'd propose the I Fought We Won myth as the core Heortling myth. After all, that's Heort's great quest. Gaining the Lawstaff was instrumental in remaking society, but IFWW is about remaking the world.

>Heortling High Kings were chosen from both sympathizer and traditionalists
>against Councilic way. And after the Council was broken, Heortlings have
>often appeared as an ally
>of Dragonewts and Trolls in the manner of Winter Tribe.

IMO the Heortlings regarded the trolls and newts as their allies in their cause against the Talastari and Dorastans.

>Era of Garindath
>The War went worse, and rather Berenethtelli Heroes led the whole Heortling
>rather than High Kings.

>Hendreik the Freeman firstly started Outlaw Companies. (I don't know where
>he founded it, but IIRC, Joerg once commented that was near of Snakepipe
>Hollow, and later they moved to Old Highland (Modern Heortland?).

I don't think I ever spent much thought on Snakepipe Hollow, but the later move to the highland parts of Heortland is pretty much agreed upon.

>Era of Owenreth (Storm Tribe p.236 & Enclosure)
>Arkat was rescued from Underworld, came and liberated Heortlings. I don't
>know how much damage was forced during Gbaji War, but Hendreiki seemed to
>offer shelter to refugees (or true outlaws as modern Gyffir of Hidden
>Gale?)

The Hendreiki would accept their kinsfolk. Given that the tribe was founded from refugees from the Pelorian Heortling lands, sheltering refugees from those parts is taking in kin.

>*EWF aka Youf
>Era of Harasaran (Dragonpass History)
>From mere Religious Title to Political Figure,
>by the purge (scapegoating?) of Arkati Influence, Heortling King gradually
>regained much influence in Orlanthland gained Independence from support
>(Oppression?) of OOO. I don't know how was the condition in the east of
>Chorarinthor Bay during that age.

The Hendriki probably didn't join the dragon movement, but didn't fight it either. The Only Old One didn't lose much influence to the Tax Slaughter, since he remained influential in Esrolia, but the Dagori Inkarth trolls lost their tribute.

>From Glorantha: Introduction to HW p.143,
>"A shadowy brotherhood devoted to Black Arkat exists in Heortland but its
>temple location is hidden. Its human worshippers are the eyes and ears of
>Ezkankekko in the land."

>So I think Kitori and Black Arkati held great influence to Heortland
>(Hendrikiland) under the Kingdom of Night Era.

The whereabouts of the Kitori during the Imperial Age are a bit unclear.

The Dawn Age Kitori had been darkness-worshipping humans (possibly descended from Harandings?) who moved on top of Shadow Plateau - then still a fairly pleasant land below Akez Loradak.

They suffered badly from the Gbaji Wars, possibly to extinction.

The Kitori of the Modern Age have been described as "mixed tribe of humans and trolls", which is different to the Dawn Age tribe. Later Greg said that they were both trolls and humans, and neither. Much like the Only Old One when he proved to be a human and a troll.

>*Alakoringa High Kings
>Era of Alakoring
>Much Ralian Influence. (Maybe Alakoring didn't know the concept of High
>King. TR p.246, I think thought-provoking his subcult was Latin word
>"Rex"...)

IMO it should have been "regulus", "little king".

>I don't know whether there was united kingdom under him or not.

He seems to have held power in Aggar for a while, though we don't know how long. All we know is that he was shot by Tobosta Greenbow and thereby escaped obliteration in the Dragonkill War (so he could be present in the Godplane parts of Castle Blue in 1247).

>(Or Alakoring abandoned his companions several times as Arkat moving from
>Halikiv (?), Lankst, Delela and flying over to Nidan Mountains, Aggar,
>Elder Wild and Dragonpass....)

I find this comparison apt, as far as the time he probably spent with his peoples is concerned.

>But at least his influence was so great that later of the people of
>Orlanthi north of Death Line have called themselves Alakorings.

Alakoring's rites took the power from the priests and placed them under his lesser kings.

>Era of Verenmars
>Though he was a son of the Dara Happan Emperor and a Carmanian >Princess,
>Verenmars accepted much Alakoring Customs for ruling his shared World with
>his brothers. (Or Harald Smith thought so.) I don't know whether his
>Dynasty survived the Catastrophe of Dragonkill or not.

From Harald's King list it appears that the dynasty died out (or laid low) before the Dragonkill, and the land became part of the combined Carmanian/Dara Happan Empire.

>But it seems they also kept their First among Them as High King, and maybe
>it means "Successor of True Orlanthi Kingdom after Heortling was corrupted
>by Draconic Blasphemous Way."
>They revised their name Alakoring, as Heort revised their name to Heortling
>from Vingkotling.

IMO the Alakoring kingship is restricted to tribal kingship (over small tribes). Anything larger is either a warlord forming a temporary alliance (like Greymane among the Solanthi), or a Sacred King like the Kings of Dragon Pass.

No, wait, this doesn't explain King Rascius of Aggar or the Talastari (I known they aren't Heortlings, but they do follow Alakoring customs) High Kings, and only partially the Queen of Holay. There is nothing to indicate any "sacred" component in Rascius' kingship over Aggar, nor in Bolthor's.

>*Tarshite (High) Kings
>Era of Arim
>Arim crossed Deathline and went to Kero Fin and met Sorana Tor, (I don't
>know where she was from after Dragonkill)

Sorana Tor was an avatar of Ana Gor (and Kero Fin). Probably not a human woman, but a daimon.

>Era of Yarandros
>Rivalry between Yelmic (?) Tradition and Heortling Tradition. He >succeeded
>his title by the blood, not by the approval of Shaker's Temple and Kero Fin
>Authority,

Reverting to Vingkotling kingship. It is also significant that his father abdicated, rather than passing on Kingship on his deathbed.

In a warrior culture like the Orlanthi, death in battle can be regarded as natural causes for a king. Death as sacrifice plays an important role in the Illaro dynasty and apparently among the early Colymar tribe (which has strong Esrolite influences).

The King of Dragon Pass game has tribal kings stepping down from their office when there is unrest in the tribe. How common is this among Heortling tribes?

>Era of Phargentes
>He ruled the Southern Peloria as both the Governor of Southern Province and
>King of Tarsh, and much regained territory under the Lunar Empire. I don't
>think Lunars permit any of Orlanthi use High King Title

Phargentes' and Moirades' bids for "King of Dragon Pass" were approved by the Empire.

>*Dragon High King
>Era of Argrath

IMO Argrath (whichever, however many) takes the "King of the Land" concept to the extreme. King of Dragon Pass, King of Saird, Protector of Kethaela...

>*(High) King of Hendreiki
>Era of Daranvolath (Thunder Rebels p.152)
>I don't know how much refugees from Dragonpass escaped from the invasion of
>True Golden Horde and massacre of Dragonkill, but it seems Heortland became
>much populated after that from Cross Line, if the many folks in King of
>Dragonpass followed
>Dragons as in Clan History.

The breakdown of the EWF came not so much as a sudden disaster, but crept up on the people. Even before the massacre of the EWF leaders in 1037 (IIRC) some groups achieved full dragonhood and disappeared from the population. When the leaders were gone and the combined Carmanian and Dara Happan forces raided Dragon Pass, as well as the Praxians (who did so regularly now the land had lost its draconic protection), a southward migration may well have been attractive to some of the Kerofinelans.

The Golden Horde didn't come entirely as a surprise, either, so a fair number of last minute refugees may have swept into Kethaela.

>Era of Andrin
>If the Zombie King demoted his title only from "High King" to "King"
>indicated by English Term, that is too obvious his "unnatural" conversion,
>but IMHO, Pharaoh let him use March, Earl as an ambiguous terms for
>Belintar could catch good buffer without offending Heortlanders. (Except
>Volsaxi.) I
>don't know when Volsaxi started.

It is possible that Zombie Andrin used the Malkioni word for King rather than the Heortling term for High King (in keeping with renaming and restructuring the other positions of rank - compare Peter Metcalfe's Moirades Khorz decree in Unspoken Word #1.

>Joerg:
>>Killing the king and returning him as a pharaonic creature is close enough
>>to "forcing". The Heortlanders like to think that they freely accepted the
>>Pharaoh. That's similar to post-WWII Germany soaking up US-American
>>influences.

>Too dangerous parallel....

While I agree that it does pre-Zombie Andrin a disservice to be compared to Hitler's regime, the situation with the benevolent conqueror and the populations acceptance thereof does have much in common.

>>The God Forgotten with their Brithini beliefs (use the White Wizard
>>"Zzabur Says" from Revealed Mythologies for their religion)
>>but without the benefits even the Arolanit or Sog City Brithini earn are
>>as different from either group as Jews are from Muslims.

>What's the difference?

The Ingareens have no prophets (other than Zzabur's doctrine). They are largely ignorant of the Fifth Action, or possibly deny that it happened that way. The only "Malkioni" culture they had regular contact with were the Waertagi, who are similarly untouched by the changes in religious perspective which came with the Fifth Action.

During the God Learner Era, the Ingareens received mainly the Zistorite Knowledgists, who probably didn't have much truck with the niceties of the Abiding Book and a similar "atheist" outlook.

>I think there is great change between original setting of Aeolians and this
>HW setting, for in the older version, Creator (or Son of the Creator?) was
>the God Orlanth himself, but in that version, Orlanth was merely a human
>and (false) Wizard.

Yes, that version isn't up to date any more. That version described an Orlanthi cult with sorcery tossed in, and ignoring the difference between Materialist and Theist Other Sides. It was tailored to RuneQuest Rules.

>Maybe this setting is forced by the 1st Edition HW and Misapplied Worship
>Rule, I don't know how Lunar Imperial Book explains Idovanus = Creator.

This stems mainly from my old approach that the difference between materialist and theist worlds is not an absolute, but a continuum.

The Heortland Aeolians were my playtest of a henotheist culture, an attempt to find out how the Stygians and other henotheists worked.

I'd probably rule the "misapplied worship/veneration" rules and "alien world modifiers" for my game as half penalty in either.

>*King of Dragonpass (FHQ & Inhuman King)
>Era of Sartar
>Era of Tarkalor
>Era of Moirades

><<What means "King of Dragonpass"?
>Many Residents of Human and Demihuman live in Dragonpass Area. Though
>Dragonewts and their Ruler Inhuman King possessed Hegemonic Power over All
>of them, they denied Communication for their Own Nature and Past Fail of
>EWF.
The 'newts of Dragon Pass came to an agreement with the theist powers of Dragon Pass according to some of the earliest myths of the Orlanthi (Soul Arranger resting at Larnste's Table next to Dragon's Eye). This is different from Daruda's method in Kralorela.

>(But we can never truly understand their Motives and Thinking. They founded
>Concept of "King of Dragonpass" in Historical Line.

According to CHDP Inhuman Occupation, Ironhoof the Centaur started the business, filling the void left by the absence of human domination and organizing a way for the various peoples of Dragon Pass to coexist. The trolls didn't quite cooperate, but were overcome (Battle of Smoking Ruin).

>We can understand Sartar and Feathered Horse Queen ritually and politically
>wedded for Balance of Power and Religious Reason which would bestow them
>Prosperity and recognition
>of Dragonewts...

Arim's and Illaro's dynasties (up to Pyjeemsab) maintained a lesser version of Arim's achievement of marrying Sorana Tor (much like Ironhoof's successors appear to have done), but Hon-eel's intervention stopped the Sorana Tor practices in Tarsh.

There was both a vacuum and an opportunity which led to the FHQ aiming at becoming the avatar of Kero Fin. (I wonder how the alien worlds theme is dealing with this...)

>It didn't require Intervention of Personal Romances like in the Variety of
>"Argrath's Saga", Holay Queen=Incarne=FHQ.

IMO adding romance strengthens the ritual and the magic.

>But why that combination required? FHQ is very magically Important
> >Position which gives Connection to Symbol of Dragonpass's Earth and
>(IMHO) Kero Fin,

Originally, the FHQ was a high shamaness of the horse people. A feathered horse is of course a more divine form of a horse, closer to hippogriff. Compare the Char-un breeding efforts (carnivorous stallion, winged mare) and the Most Reverend Mother who lost the wedding contest to Hon-eel in the Redlands.

>and Grazers are naturally extinct Race of Pure Horse tribe which has Lost
>Magic linked to Special Races of Horse and Worship of Kargzant. Some of
>Materials of Herowars mentioned prophesy She has Power of Earth, which
>will >permit Modern "Dirty" Horse Tribes to gain or recover such power.
>Grazers gained Some Magical Connections with Beastfolk and their Leader
>Demigod
>Centaur Ironhoof when they get Permission to living in the Dragonpass as
>Dweller and Master of Vendref.

Masters of Vendref wasn't part of their adoption by Ironhoof. The first Vendref entered Dragon Pass roughly 60 years after the Grazer culture had been founded. Ironhoof still was active in this time (RQ Companion, Pharaoh and Ironhoof erected Stone Cross Altar as memorial to their mutual agreement), or maybe was summoned by his successors (much like the Praxians may summon their founders). Arim entered from the north slightly later than the Colymar and the earliest First Wave Quivini.

>She didn't have absolute authority and jointly ruled many Grazer Clans and
>Tribes with Male Leader Chieftain of All tribe, she grips Such Power, "King
>of Sartar" referred Some Names of FHQ:

IMO this is the complete list of FHQs. 8 queens over 160 years (1470 to 1630) gives an average reign of 40 years per queen.

>These are Lists of CHDP:
>Reaches Farthest: Wedded with Sartar, Prince of Quivin Orlanthi (Queen of
>Dragonpass)

Queen of DP 1497 to apotheosis of Sartar or her death. FHQ already around 1470.

>Keeps the Children: Wedded with Jaldanroste Redhair, but he maybe didn't
>have Authority to KODP

>Mother of Lands: Wedded with Tarkalor, Prince of Quivin Orlanthi (Queen of
>Dragon pass)

Queen of DP from 1575 to 1582. Presumably has been FHQ for some time before.

>Splendid among the Proud: No Husband

>Riches Without Tears: Wedded with Moirades, King of Tarsh Kingdom (Queen of
>Dragon Pass)

Queen of DP roughly 1605.

>Single Matron Woman: No Husband

>With Bitter Heart: Husband? Mother of Chieftain Jarsandron?

Died (or sacrificed herself) in 1625. I doubt that she was Jarsandron's mother, since Jarsandron seems to have come to power by 1605. (all of this without access to KoS)

>Reaches All: Wedded with Argrath the Liberator (Queen of Dragonpass)

Queen of DP 1629, according to KoS.

Probably until roughly 1640.

>So these are conditions for King of Dragonpass
>1: He is Husband of FHQ

Husband of an avatar of Kero Fin. For Ironhoof, this was Tara, Lady of the Wild; for Arim, this was Sorana Tor; since Sartar this has been the FHQ.

>2: He is Famous Leader of Orlanthi

I wouldn't call Ironhoof that... ;-) Famous leader of the region fits the bill.

Neither Arim nor Ironhoof seem to have had rivals, but since Sartar and the FHQ there have been various contestants, reviving the tradition of the tournament for the Necklace of Kero Fin which originated (1?)78 ST after Aram-ya-Udram's death. (Griffin Mountain)

>3: He gains Admittance of Inhumanking, true ruler of DP

I don't think that the Inhuman King is regarded as the true ruler of DP. It represents the acceptance of the dragons of the land, and probably the obligation of the ruler to protect their kin from another Golden Horde.

>But Sartar divorced with FHQ...

Did he? Both his marriages to the FHQ were year marriages, as part of the contest.

>Tarkalor was not Friend of All Races of Dragon Pass,

I also have the impression that his kingship was as equal partner of the FHQ rather than as victor of the contest. Note that his son by the FHQ, Saraskos, appears to be raised by the Grazers.

>Moirades was not Friend of Beastfolk as Supporter of Lunar,

How could this be relevant?

>Argrath wedded with Many Wives?

Sartar had Eonistaran by a different woman, and probably left other offspring among the tribes.

>Maybe title of KODP hasn't any actual power except some connection to
>Earthly Power of Dragonpass.

The title does seem to give some tangible benefit, or neither Phargentes nor Moirades would have contested for it.

I have a theory that you have to be KoDP in order to gain military aid from the dragonewts.

>Do you know when the Old Wind Temple founded? Could Heort visit there?

Probably yes. I have no evidence for this, but Old Wind might be the site where Hantrafal discovered how to contact the distant gods...



Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

--__--__--

Powered by hypermail