Selshena Dead or Alive? Population of DH

From: TERRA INCOGNITA <inarsus-ferilt-z_at_mrg.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 14:15:38 +0900


Hello,

<<Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:19:04 +1300
To: glorantha_at_r...
From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_b...>
Subject: Dara Happan Temples

Terra:

> >The oldest style is the Footstool (or Ziggurat) which dates
> >from the Golden Age.

>It was called Selshena in GROY and FS (Greg's Lunar Novel). But I am
>skeptical about such construction have survived long since Golden Age

Well since it's in the shape of a pyramid, destroying it is always going to be very difficult. So I'm comfortable with the notion of it surviving in ruins.

>(Or TakenEgi reconstructed it several times)

It would have been mentioned in his list of great deeds if it happened.

>IMHO Sheng Seleris destroyed it,

Again it would have been noted. Instead we are told that Sheng Seleris placed the Empty Emperor on the Footstool (FS p63) and later his brother attempted the ten tests.

>never broken construction were
>Raibamus (a sort of Big Stone Clad (Meteor?) and magical pillar
(called
>Shaft, p45 GROY) appearing for Tem Tests of each legitimate Emperors.

The Shaft of Light appears on top of the Footstool.

"We went east down the huge Imperial Way, towards the Square of the Sun. From anyplace on that wide road, we could see the Selshena. The huge pyramid was mounted by a tower. Atop that, on holy days (I am told), the column of light called Antirius appeared once again to bath Our Father [the Red Emperor - PHM], and begin anew the cycles of appearing every seven years."
YBoT p20.

>IMHO, Sheng Seleris could destroy everything except things made from
>Adamant...even God's Wall was "revised" by him.

I strongly doubt this. Any revision of the Gods Wall would be scars rather than rearrangements.

--Peter Metcalfe>>

>Well since it's in the shape of a pyramid, destroying it is always
>going to be very difficult. So I'm comfortable with the notion of
>it surviving in ruins.

In Revealed Mythology Sheng Seleris mustered a navy and tried to invade Vormain and Teshnos during his short reign 75 years, it seems that he couldn't find any impossibility in his dictionary. (Except finding TakenEgi Magnificus)

Though I'm not sure as you are.

> Again it would have been noted. Instead we are told that
>Sheng Seleris placed the Empty Emperor on the Footstool
>(FS p63) and later his brother attempted the ten tests.

I think the authors and editors of FS and GROY deleted the fact "that shouldn't be occurred". (What a blasphemy! Our Footstool has survived since Murharzarm!)
And one time, IIRC, people of Darjiin tried to make their own Ziggurat (GROY p.30) for backing up their own Emperor in the reign of Manarlavus. And Spolite also kept their own pyramids for their own purpose and seems to try to use it for the same purpose in the FS p.97. So I think in the God Age Dara Happans easily could create and destroy their pyramids. (Maybe most of them didn't use them for their grave....)

As Greg mentioned, Murharzarm is no human as ancient Vingkotling, and if the Footstool was truly his, maybe it is too small for find himself inside. (The Great Problem for Dara Happans is they kept their ruins, not as Heortling or Praxians. Perhaps I shouldn't think the scale of Building seriously. or maybe some magical atmosphere as the Peak of Kero Fin around it? I think the "artificial" Footstool is the dual opposition of natural "Mountain")

From Tales #17 The Tale of Manlavus by Martin: "-and a city which berthed a ship made of a Dragon and teemed with more people than our Glorious Trpolis put together. We sailed on one of these city ships with the Green Men-"

(p.55 Waertagi Ship)

I don't know the scale of Waertagi Dragonships are (huge as a mountain as True Dragons?), but...
It seems Martin believes (believed?) DH cities weren't so great as Rome or Constantinople even in the pinnacle of DH empire just before Kastok conquest..

From the information of Malion's unofficial tome in Rough Guide to Glamour , (Maybe it is a little bit unofficial for it was printed by Reaching Moon Megacorp) around 25 square kilometers and (I don't know Martin uses this supplement for reference) Martin put on 500,000 numbers of people. (I don't know this number includes the population beyond the city wall or not.)

In RW, just before Peloponissian War, the population of Athens was around 200,000-300,000 (most reliable source though there wasn't enough proof. And it includes Slaves.) And in 9C, Constanstinople barely held 250,000 though it holds more capacity in that city scale. (But contemporary Baghdad held 1,000,000...)

Just before 1453, the number counts barely 5000. The circumstance has greatly influenced it.

(Efendi taught me Turkish Istanbul (though it wasn't called so at that time) held 500,000 in 16C, 1,000,000 in 17C.)

On the contrary, Hellenistic Alexandria held 1,000,000. In Rome, Trajanus count the population of Rome 1,200,000 in the pinnacle of Imperium.

As you know the harvest of rice is much greater than that of barley or wheat, I don't know well how ancient cities survived their own. Maybe Dara Happans have reaped rice for main crop. And Glamour imports great amount of food from Good Shore. (I don't have Rough Guide to Glamour or Boldhome.) Maybe I should consider the scale of my own Raibanth to less larger size. 

From Martin's Manpower of LE and the reply below: <<Hey there

> To Martin Laurie, Viceroy of Lunar Empire and Professional of Military:

> I should read more about Scale of Army and Geographical Image of
Tripolis.
> And City Walls were not most flexible part of City Expanding and
Shrinking
> of the Population of both Army and Citizens. I think Alkoth is most
limited
> for expanding for their Army Reliance and Restriction for Ring of
Shargash.

Yes, they don't expand the city beyond the ring, except for the docks which move a lot dur to the river moving. Alkoth though has a large population and
is a packed city. 90,000 live there in the 1620s. The city is around 20 metres higher inside at ground level than outside. The buildings are build on the ruins and foundations of previous works and are usually very tall.

Yuthuppa has 80,000

Raibanth 75,000

Elz Ast is also a DH city and has 35,000

> I don't know who set the identity of Green King, Red King and Mysterious
> Black King. My Image to Alkoth is mixed Image of Indian Delhi and Sparta.
> Lunar "Divide and Rule" policy divided Tripolis to three Satrapies.

Alkoth is like no earth city as it is in the underworld. People there live in a perpetual gloom, the air is thick with ash and the sky streaked with demons and energies. It is a frightening place, yet they carry on normal lives within it. They have children, they make goods, they have love and politics etc.

> First Blessed 900,000: Yuthuppa-Esvuthil
> Silver Shadow 175,000 (except Glamour 500,000): Raibanth-Vonlath
> Darjiin 950,000: Alkoth-Henjarl

Alkoth is in Kostaddi

>
> My Image:
> Yuthuppa / Peace of Sky World / Phoenix / Babylon, Tenotitran? /
Buserian,
> Dayzatar,
> Anaxial

Reasonable

> Raibanth / Rule of Surface World / Gryphin? / Rome, Persepolis? /
Antirius,
> Murharxarm, Dendara

Yes
>
> Would teach me the scale of each tripolises?

Hope this helped.

Regards

Martin>>

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