> > > > Malkioni sorcerors do certainly 'channel' energies provided by > > > > God.
> > >
> > > I don't think that's their understanding, and I don't think it's true
> > > in the "standard cosmology".
> >
> > 'tis. IMHO. The Nodes and Sorcery Plane rules, the presence of
> > spells as ultra-matter (in the neo-platonist sense) in those places,
> > seem to imply that channelling * per se * _does_ occur.
>
> I don't follow this at all. Channeling _of what_?
Of ultra-matter, which is, by Nature, Divine.
> As the process
> is fundamentally the same for atheists and liturgical wizards,
That's a distinction that I didn't really make. I was using "Malkioni" in the sense of "as deriving one's magic from Malkion, whatever one may personally believe about it". OK, there IS an implicit distinction here, but not between good pious Wizards vs atheists ands liturgists. There are minority groups of sorcerors who derive their sorceries from other sources, such as Underworld Nodes, Demons, Intra-Gloranthan Essences, Short Worlds etc.
> I don't see how your description about is appropriate or helpful.
What sort of appropriateness or helpfulness, for which ideal metapurposes, are you looking for ? If I had a better understanding of your needs, I might be able to say something you'd find helpful.
The above is intended as a descriptive generalisation, of a whole culture of magical practices. A rule, if you like, from which possibly interesting exceptions and twists could perhaps be derived and characterised ?
> (If
> it essentially collapses to "channeling energies, their provision or
> not by God being a matter of opinion", then we really are none the
> wiser at all.)
You mistake me : their provision by God (or not) certainly ISN'T a matter of opinion, but a cosmological fact.
i.e. if you are a (broad definition) Malkioni sorceror, then your magic comes from God, partakes of God, and is in fact a "channeling" of Divine "forces" ("forces" certainly NOT a good word at this level). If you are a NON-Malkioni sorceror, then you have some sort of Pact with a Netherworld entity or Other World denizen, or from some other sort of Node that has been permanently sundered from the Godhood and therefore the Sorcery Plane in some way or other. The Ultimate Source of these powers is still God (with the proviso that the Node may have been contaminated by some non-Divine energy source, such as a theist or even chaotic entity etc), BUT these non-Malkioni sorcerors are not "channeling energies provided by God", but by Orlanth Invisible and other sorts of demons etc.
> Isn't _manipulating_ said energies a more apt description, however?
It's certainly apt, but I don't know if it's *more* apt.
> 'Channeling' conjures up (as it were) images of the sorceror
> incarnating or haggling with some manifest entity, which isn't correct
> at all.
Hmmmm : is this some sort of RulesMaster "Channeling" image ?
I was trying to use the word in as abstract a manner as possible ...
Here there be increasingly separate and suspiciously circular meanderings by both parties to the discussion :
> > > Come to that,
> > > how meaningful is the latter conception, entirely?
>
> ["that part of the god that performs the Feats in question"]
>
> > It draws from Greg's entirely correct statements that a god _IS_
> > the thing that it's the god _of_. Orlanth IS the Storm, Yelm IS the
> > Sun.
> >
> > Hence Storm and Sun magics are (usually) manifest portions of
> > those gods. And yes, there is some more Dreaded Great Gods
> > Thread & HPG funkiness along that line of reasoning.
>
> No, the air, the warmth of a summer day, are the manifest portions of
> those gods (among other things). The _magic_, the Feat, is the act
> that evokes those in a particular manner. I realize this may be a
> small point, but if there's a larger one to be had in this thread it's
> eluding me. ;-)
:-)
Actually, your idea that the air, the warmth of a summer day, are the manifest portions of those gods is incorrect AFAIK. In most cases, the air and the warmth of a summer day or mixed Inner World substances, inside the broken world.
OTOH : From the subjective POV of an actual Gloranthan, you're right about the Feat being an act that evokes a special event of air or Summer Warmth (cool name for a Feat/Affinity BTW). From the subjective POV of the god (or rather "that part of the god that performs the Feats in question"), the Feat is an act whereby the magician sacrifices part of his own identity, Free Will, and Place in the Cosmos (the High Sacrifice described by Greg somewhere in HW:RiG or NB), so that the Feat is performed (from which it follows that the Feat is a discrete phenomenon in the god world). From an objective POV, the Feat is a singular event taking place at a transcendental juncture of the god world and several points of Gloranthan space-time.
> > There's an endless debate possible here, BTW, about whether
> > from an internally Gloranthan POV the magician does the Feat
> > or whether the god does.
See above for the start of it ... <sigh>
> > From a gaming POV the answer is
> > (usually, but _not_ always and for every gaming group) that the
> > magic is controlled (more or less) by the player.
>
> At least in intention... (Dice, stats and GM veto permitting.)
> Then again, nowhere is it written that the player's responsibility
> in co-creation of the experienced game world begins and ends at
> the physical or cosmological boundary of his or her character's
> person.
That's right : which itself implies several interesting things about the nature of Gloranthan magic (things there's thankfully no need to explore ... ).
Julian Lord
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