> > Hm, actually I partially disagree with Greg here : I agree that no-one can
> > UNDERSTAND anything before the creation of people, but I don't
> > agree when Greg says no-one can go back there. Strange meditation
> > practises can IMO take you to places where not only does individual
> > consciousness not exist (Green Age Mind), but even Collective
> > Consciousness nor any perception of Being whatsoever (Black Age
> > Mind) : but you CAN come back from that place, [...]
>
> SNIP ... I'm
> not sure these exercises are what would normally be described as
> "HeroQuests" mind you (though, what's with normal, anyway).
I agree ...
> And (also
> generically), one would not normally actually wish to _return_ from
> such a state at all.
... but there's the usual terminology problem here. Non "mystics", non "orthodox" mystics, "failed" mystics, and, generally, non-Easterners (including the GLs themeselves) would (IMO) normally except to return to a state of personal consciousness ...
... and what special name would you use to describe a mystic HQ anyway ?
> Whether this state of Cosmic Unconsciousness can be identified with an
> age, as a GL (or someone else) would conceptualise it is the trickier
> part, though, for me.
Indeed, but it seems that the pre-Golden Ages are at least strongly contemporary with those states of Cosmic Unconsciousness, and further that going to those Ages (if possible) would demand that the Traveller abandon his conscious self.
Which gets us back to the reason why these ideas cannot be proved.
> I imagine that few cosmogonies out-and-out
> contradict the GL elemental progression
The GLs were the ones doing the contradicting AFAIK, not the other way round ...
> Certainly darkness being the "first
> element" doesn't necessarily entail it being the first concept/entity/
> state of being.
And that idea would be abhorrent to any Yelmite, Easterner, or Sedenyan (etc) worth their salt ...
But I still think that the GLs would have considered it as the first state of _physical_ being ; and given their basic materialism and humanism, probably the first state of non-Divine/Created being, full stop/period.
> I'm not saying the GL conception is necessarily "wrong", certainly.
> But rather, my predisposition would be to believe that the terminology
> used by mystics themselves is the more accurate and useful for describing
> such experiences, rather than external understandings.
More terminology problems. Certainly the GL conception is generally inappropriate to describe capital-M Mystic experiences : but of course, most Mystics wouldn't actually seek to enter the Green or Blue etc Ages in the first place. Nevertheless, Green Age & Blue Age consciousness etc are "mystic" states of mind, in a broader sense of the word. States of mind actually sought out more often via animist ecstasy than any other magical method (orthodox Mysticism is quite different, as you suggest), although it's also part of "deep" Western Materialism to attempt to gain a certain purity of physical existence as a God-created being that can involve a denial of personal Consciousness, as an Inner World Flaw.
Or not.
> > Knowing a Great Secret may (or may not) also be a method for going to
> > those places (coincidentally, out of the game).
>
> Those would essentially identify you with a Great God, which would be
> possibly equivalent to, though I suspect a somewhat "lesser" state of
> being/consciousness than identification with a Celestial Court entity
> (or their various analogues). So they wouldn't necessarily put you
> at a point in "mythic time" before the creation of an element (though
> not necessarily not, either).
Yeah, the Great God thread was a rather inconclusive one, wasn't it ...
;-)
Julian Lord
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