Convergent 'Coons.

From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_cs.ucc.ie>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:18:53 +0100 (BST)

Trotsky:
> True. But this seems to me to be a case of convergent cultures, rather
> than ones diverging from the same point or worshipping the same entity
> in different guises. Certainly, I've been told there's no relationship
> between them (beyond, as you say, the obvious physical/behavioural
> similarities) so unless something's been changed since last I heard (not
> impossible, I'll grant you), there must be *some* reason why this is so :-)

What I'm finding hard to see if what this "some reason" can be, though, if there's utterly no otherworldly connection, and utterly no historical connection. If it's not Mundane, and it's not Magical, what are we left with? Coincidence?

> >>> Just as Malkioni and Heortlings look pretty much the same, but
> >>> don't have a common origin, or indeed much similarity to each other
> >>> beyond their basic humanity.
> >>
> >
> >But those things are by no means beyond mythic ambiguity. Each could
> >have different, doubtless contradictory, myths of the origin of the
> >other, in terms of _their_ system. Neither is necessarily "objectively
> >wrong" or "objectively right".
> >
> No, I'm not trying to imply that. Indeed, both the Vanchites and the
> Lotari, are, IMO correct. This is one of those cases where two different
> myths are correct because they really aren't about the same thing, not
> because of a different perspective (as with, say, Yelm v Rebellus /
> Emperor v Orlanth, or for that matter, my own Pralori and Mraloti
> myths). The Vanchite myths contradict the Lotari ones not because of
> mythic ambiguity but because, in this case, Lotara *isn't* the Vanchite
> deity (whoever that may or may not be).

What I'm trying to say here is that if the groups are in any sort of mythic contact, each will have stories about _the other_. (The Raccoon god and his No-Account Cousin, or whatever.) It's the traditional three sides to that story (what the Vanchites say, what the hsunchen say, and what an "objetcive" outsider says) which I'm saying may be mythicly ambiguous (to some unknown degree -- obviously I'm speculating).

But let's suppose that the Lotari say that Raccoon is a Spirit, and that the Vanchite religion worships some bastard godling offspring thereof, say. The Vanchite account may well be different. The GL version, different yet. These would suggestive of some sort of relationship, without it being "objectively clear" whether it was in fact the case, or indeed of what nature it is if there is one.

> Nothing wrong with mythic
> ambiguity, but I don't think it crops up here - although the God
> Learners might have disagreed and tried to envisage a Big Racoon Cult,
> since, hey, they look kind of similar...

The God Learners seem generally to be portrayed as a bunch of crazed scientists/manic academics... If you take those are remotely accurate 'models', it's a given that they agree remarkably rarely, and probably then mainly at sword-point...

Note that I'm not saying there is, or would be possible, a Big Raccoon _Cult_; just that there is _some_ o/s relationship between the two "entities". After all, most people would probably agree that the assorted sun o/s entities are "related", or even "the same at some sufficiently deep level", but there's no single Big Sun Cult that combines all those things into itself, at least with any success (despite the Dara Happans having given it the old college try for the odd millennium or so).

> >I'm sure that anyone aware of the two "different" racoons (or cats,
> >or whatever) will have a myth to account for the similarity (and
> >differences). Those are as valid, if not more so, than any rules or
> >systematic approach as to the 'true' differentiation between things.
> >
> Oh, indeed. Well, I don't know about 'more so', but I'll go with
> 'equally valid'.

I'm a reasonable man, I can strike a deal along those lines. ;-)

> One could, yes. Possibly not the central battle of the Hero Wars from
> most POVs, but it'll be significant to someone :-)

I think the most popular central battle of the Hero Wars will probably be the "hiding under table" vs "world ending" contest...

> There are instances where this sort of thing doesn't apply, I'm sure. My
> understanding is that this ain't one of them. Bears are another one
> where it doesn't apply, apparently.

Very interesting. Wouldn't have occurred to me, that one.

> But nobody's said anything about,
> say, goats - are the Zarkosites and the Caroni related in some manner? I
> dunno. Or, come to think of it, the Balazarings and the Sairdites.

> Certainly, when I was writing Anaxial's Roster I was told more than once
> that 'these two animals can't be the same, because one is associated
> with a theist deity and the other is animist'. Greg may have changed his
> mind since, of course, and exceptions may well exist anyway that just
> didn't crop up, but those were pretty firm instructions at the time.
> Take that as you will...

I was curious as to whether that was indeed someone's bugbear, and if so, whose. Thanks. If this isn't true of _humans_, though (or bears, or whatever else), I must say I find it hard to "get" the importance of this.

It equally seems odd to me if "different systems" is a (near-)absolute, and "different gods" (within a (theist in that case) system) counts for very little -- though there are such cases too, right?

Cheers,
Alex.

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