>
>>Me>[The Uz's cannibal activities] reinforces the Ogre Ancestor in some
>> >slight way. Likewise the activities of dark chaotic cults (Thanatar, Bagog
>> >etc) reinforces the Deities of Hell in some slight way, the activities
>> >of chaotic death cults reinforces other death gods in some slight
>> >way.
>
>> >That way we avoid chaos is relative.
>
>> No, we don't, [...]
>
>> We know that there are plenty of Gloranthan cultures with unsavory
>>practices -- Aramites, Uz, the Carmanians, the Char-Un and their
>>mother-culture in Pent to name a few -- and these cultures, as far as I
>>know, are no more plagued by chaos than anyone else. If cannibalism,
>>rape, violence, and treachery have to be carried to heroic depths to
>>bring the
>>taint of chaos to a person,
>
>Already we're striking problems. Violence is not intrinsically chaotic
>neither are most forms of cannibalism (Praxians, Uz and Salilgori).
According to Greg, as I understand it, they are. Every act of cannibalism strengthens the Ogre Ancestor. Whatever violence* falls within Urain's "mandate" strengthens him. The acts do not necessarily cause chaos to come bubbling up nearby (as you point out below), but they do directly aid chaos and undermine the world.
>Secondly, what was said on the HeroWars list was that repeatedly
>performing a chaotic act improved the odds of a chaotic taint. Nothing
>about "heroic depths".
>
>More importantly, merely because an entity is being strengthened
>by collateral worship does not mean that a manifestation of the
>entity appears in the immediate vicinity where the collateral worship
>took place. Hence Uz cannibalism does not mean that their
>neighborhoods are overrun by Ogres. It simply means that the
>Ogre Ancestor, wherever he may be, is made stronger in some
>slight way by the Uz ritual cannibalism. He can pass that strength
>onto where his worshippers are.
>
>Hence your general objection does not arise.
Except, as I explain at much greater length below, Gloranthan cultures (or at least some Gloranthan cultures) understand that cannibalism can turn you into an ogre. So "chaotic acts" must have observable chaotic effects often enough for the various cultures to make the connection. Unless we assume some sort of Univeral Gloranthan Commandments of What's Chaotic that was promulgated to all the People of the Lozenge.
>>Then there is the social compact which, when broken, allows chaos
>>into the community.In Heortling culture, secret murder and kinstrife are
>>two acts that damage the compact.
>
>How do secret murder and kinstrife let chaos into the community?
>Secret Murder isn't chaotic AFAIK and kinstrife is only weakly
>associated with chaos - the Orlanthi myth about it doesn't mention
>chaos for example.
Um, got me. I've been going by the conventional wisdom that it does. Since I can't find any statement that clearly contradicts yours, I have to assume that that version of "calling chaos" simply does not exist. Which is kind of a pity, since I think it's a cool idea....
>>Alternatively, a Heortling rapist is more likely to feel the
>>touch of Thed than a similarly "experienced" Char-Un because Heortling
>>society offers no approval at all for his actions -- his guilt (or, at the
>>very least, disassociation from his clan and its protections) leaves the
>>Heortling more open to chaotic influence, horn-growing, etc. The Char-Un
>>has to develop a much higher Love Rape trait to move beyond the protection
>>of his community. What's really important is the loss of the community's
>>protection and approval more than the "act."
>
>Whereas if we can say all rape is bad no matter who does it, we can avoid
>having to wade through this... theorizing.
OK, let me repeat this: rape is bad. Rape is evil. Rape is evil in the real world and in any Glorantha that I care to be associated with. I am not, at any point during this discussion, saying that rape is not evil. But, in stories set in Glorantha, evil cannot always mean observable chaos, if for no other reason that it collapses the rich web of Gloranthan conflicts down to a single axis.
Now, if we say that rape is always chaotic (and not "merely" evil) in the sense that it strengthens Thed, who is chaotic, that's great but also hair-splitting theological theorization with little relevance to what most people seem to mean when they say chaos. If, on the other hand, we mean that rape is chaotic (and not "merely" evil) in the sense that, as worship of Thed, it will bring the rapist (sooner or later, depending on factors invisible and incomprehensible to anyone not-Thed) to the attention of Thed who may or may not "bless"** the rapist (according to her whims and other factors invisible and incomprehensible to anyone not-Thed) as a result, that's a different kettle of filth. It's also, I suspect, what most people mean when they say "is chaotic.
In the first case, it's all "theorizing," because there is no observable connection between the evil act and the chaotic consequence. Sure Uncle Bjorn's nasty secret helps Thed, but since it just means that more Broos plague Pavis, who on Uncle Bjorn's tula will ever know or care? The second case means that, in some cases, Uncle Bjorn will eventually call observable chaos to the tula. Now, since Heortlings seem to understand that rape can bring chaos, rape must result in chaos often enough for people to understand the connection.*** If this is the case, then there are some human cultures that are more "buffered" against the "chaos blessing effect" for given evils, because those cultures perform the acts with more apparant impunity and may even make them "cultural norms" (although, I will stress again, no less evil). This is "theorizing" again, but just in a different place.
The CharUn are, in my opinion, an evil culture, but they are not, as far as I know, obserably chaotic. Their viciousness and acceptance of acts like rape (at least within some context) does not apparantly lead to the wide-spread appearance of observable chaos among them as it would if those cultural values were transplanted to a Heortling clan. Some possible reasons:
>> Anyway, all evil is not chaos. Glorantha needs to have room for
>>villainy that doesn't lead to mutation and tentacles. The worst people are
>>not necessarily broos, ogres, or gibbering horrors. Normal people are
>>capable of atrocities (and heroism), and there needs to be some room for
>>cultural difference -- Glorantha has not been known for absolutism.
>
>How does a position of "chaos is not culturally relative" preclude this?
It doesn't. That was just my plea that not all evil in Glorantha needs to involve chaos.
Peter Larsen
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