Perhaps the CharUn and Aramites "get away" with their behavior because the rest of the world rejects it? Or the Cannibal Cult exists because the Great Compromise says that there is a place for this behavior in the world (probably because the Cannibal Cult's god or spirit helped "hold the web")?
>>>>That's pretty clear. But what about Uz?
>My discussion about evil and chaos is about human beings, not other
>species. We can not apply human considerations to other creatures. Fish eat
>their babies, but this is not to say people can do so.
But doesn't this apply to cultures, too? The descendents of the sons of Orlanth are different from the descendents of the First People made by Yelm and the Solar gods. What is natural to the Orlanthi is abberant to the Dara Happa, and vice versa.
>>b) have some sort of
>>cultural protections in place (like a lesser or broader version of the
>>ritual status of Marani cannibalism). Either way, some sins are "worse" for
>>some cultures and people than others.
>
>The fact that it is contained does not diminish the "worseness" of it. It
>only means we know where it is and can avoid it as normal human beings.
But it does diminish that culture's experience of it. If evil has a direct, observable effect on the perpetrator or the perpetrator's community, the community has a lot more reason to villify that behavior than if the act has some generally unnoticable impact on the world. It's kind of like the way that we criminalize murder but are a lot vaguer about how we deal with pollution, even though a single factory may kill more people than any murderer.
This is what I mean when I say the experience of chaos is relative -- The "rules" vary somewhat from culture to culture on what the observable results of specific acts are likely to be. For whatever reason, the CharUn warrior is able to commit acts that, while they erode the nature of the world, do not affect him in an observable way (other than making him even more callous, unpleasant, and likely to commit those acts again). A Heortling who behaves like a CharUn seems much more likely than the CharUn to suffer observable personal or communal effects of those acts. Perhaps they both degrade the world to the same degree, but their direct experience of that degredation will be different and, as far as I see, somewhat predictable.
>>In Heortling culture, secret murder and kinstrife are
>>two acts that damage the compact. In Solar and Lunar lands, neither of
>>these would do it
>
>I would not agree with the above statement about the Dara Happans.
I thought (at the very least) Dara Happan patriarchs could kill their family members with impunity. But, apparently, breaking the social compact does not automatically attract chaos, so this doesn't really apply to this argument.
>>I guess I would try to get out of the relativety trap by suggesting
>>that the "slippery slope of chaos" is invoked partly by the acts and partly
>>by the person's feelings or guilt and perversion. The Marani eating human
>>flesh knows that this is a holy act -- she feels no guilt and she is
>>squarely within the embrace of her goddess
>
>Nice point. Look at it this way: the Marani performs these perverse and
>evil actions SO THAT it can be contained and recognized. It IS a "holy act"
>for her. This does not make it OK for others.
I totally agree. Similarly, anyone who says "Gee, those CharUn raiders get away with rape, torture, and slaughter, the taboos must be wrong" is in for a nasty slap down. Certainly a player in a game I ran who took this approach would be sorely disappointed in the results....
>>Anyway, all evil is not chaos.
>
>Alternately, all chaos is not tentacles and squiggly bits.
>Performing evil doesn't always bring a chaos of becoming a broo or getting
>a chaos feature. Sometimes it weakens society, the cosmos or some other
>part of the cosmos that you may not even know about.
Another, related point, is that not all chaos is necessarily evil. They have to be two different things, or the Lunars are objectively wrong.
>I agree here. And make it worse: some people perform evil actions and DON'T
>suffer the way other people might. They appear to get away with cosmic
>crimes. Whole societies seem to get away with crimes!
>What is that about? How does that happen? It's not fair!
>Damn right, and that is EXACTLY the kind of moral crisis that generates
>hot, dangerous and challenging adventures.
It seems to me that we are saying sort of the same thing -- different cultures and different individuals have radically different experiences of chaos -- what causes ghastly observable personal consequences to one may have no open effect on the other. Where we diverge (as far as I can see) is that I want some sense of the mechanisms that cause this to happen.
By the way, I don't think these mechanisms are visible or understood within the cultures or even within Glorantha for the most part. It's not like the Marani has a 5 lbs human flesh/week permit and she can weigh it out and judge that she has entered the "ogrism danger zone," or that she can calculate Maran's protection like vitamin dosages. In a game, I guess I would compare the character's Love to Eat Human Flesh rating with her Devotee of Maran ability and judge when she is eating for the sake of eating human flesh vs her holy duty and joy to serve the Shaker, but the Marani can't read her own character sheet, so it's still invisible.
Peter Larsen
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