My last take on Chaos (I hope)

From: Greg Stafford <greg_at_glorantha.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:34:18 -0700


>From: <antalvarez1976_at_hotmail.com>

>Greg Stafford in HeroWars list
>>Chaos is sometimes a thing, a component in the material world. (a broo or
>>scorpion man)
>>Chaos is sometimes an action, a component of the immaterial world.
>>(kinstrife, tapping)
>
>So, there are actions that are chaotic theirselves, of chaotic un-nature
(or perhaps depends of the grade, as "torture for pleasure"). If somebody can perceive Chaos (an uroxi) he could see that the action itself was chaotic. Could he?

Not in my game.
Uroxi perceive things, not actions.

>I would like to know what are these actions. Rape? torture? kinstrife?
cannibalism? treason? human sacrifice? tapping? slavery? spreading disease? killing people without any reason?

Yes, to all of those in some degree or another. People in Glorantha do not agree on precisely which of these, and do not agree on how much of each of these is fully chaotic.

>Is their chaotic nature more-or less widely known (so my players know that
these actions are chaotic)?

Yes, generally, although I want to point out that even in Gloranthan people argue about "how much is chaotic." Some say "Any and all!" Others say "accidents are forgiven," and others say "It's OK if it is contained properly."

>If is true that chaos is a "passionate refusal to the physic and moral
limits of the universe",

That statement is not necessarily true.

>there are probably actions and facts that are not chaotic, but could
attract chaos, depending of the circumstances (personal, cultural, social).

Yes, it is possible to do something that is not considered chaotic elsewhere, but to bring chaos into the world because you think it is so!!

>For example, if slavery is not chaotic,

I don't consider slavery to be chaotic in the manner that it turns people into chaos creatures or things.

>And, what about with religions that admit some of the former acts (chaotic
un-nature), but hate Chaos? For example, the Galvosti tapping pagans. I know you have discussed about this, but it isn't clear for me...

They have a moral dilemma.
Just because something is being done in Glorantha doesn't mean the people are not troubled about it. Or that it is right. The Galvosti are one example. Tapping is bad, everyone (except certain Zzaburite sorcerer schools) knows that. But Galvost taught that it was OK to tap Pagans.

>>The Marani can "get away with it" for the same reason that Humakti can
"get >away" with killing their kin: they are contained within a compartment of the >social structure that is specifically "designed" to contain them.
>
>If the evil act is "contained", is it chaotic or not, or nobody knows?

Maranites do not become ogres. You decide. In Glorantha are people, including Heortlings, who say it is! They say, "We just need to keep it where we can watch it!"

>Are Ompalam, Malia and Ikadz chaotic beings?
>Peter Metcalfe said in the HeroWars list that they are not chaotic but
they are included in Chaos Pantheon because they are evil.

I'll agree with Peter.

>> >Already we're striking problems. Violence is not intrinsically chaotic

The Heortlings consider any of their virtues,when taken to extremes, to be chaotic.

>According to TR, Urain is a type of bad weather. It has no connection
>to chaos. I know that in the old RQ days it was a chaotic version of
>Urox but that appears to have been gregged.

Chaotic version of Urox? Jeez, I doubt I ever said that. Urain is violence taken too far. Yea, Gagarthi type of violence.

>> >> We know that there are plenty of Gloranthan cultures with
unsavory
>> >>practices -- Aramites, Uz, the Carmanians, the Char-Un and their
>
>IMO the Char-Un (and the Pentans) practise no more unsavoury practices
>than anybody else does. People seem to be fixated on a Char-Un
>propensity for rape. I don't know where this comes from.

I think it comes form the lap where this is stated to be one of their actions. So stated, it becomes a place of focus. But I agree that they are not unique in this, and that most people in Glorantha are as capable of unsavory actions as most people on Earth.

>I think that this reputation is the same type of thing that led medieval
>people to describe the mongols with horns and tails.

A lot of this exists in Glorantha. a lot of what I have written about he Lunars is exactly this type of misunderstandings.



Greg Stafford, greg_at_glorantha.com
Issaries, Inc. 900 Murmansk St., Suite 5; Oakland, CA 94607 Phone: (510) 452 1648 Fax: (510) 302 0385 Publisher of Hero Wars, Roleplaying in Glorantha See our site at: <www.glorantha.com>

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