I'm ignoring some of Joerg's latest arguments because the core concept (that Fonritan religion is misapplied sacrifice to spirits) is simply worth the continued public debate.
>In Fonrit, all this transcendant aspect appears to be channeled via the
>Gargandites.
No, it doesn't. Ompalam is also worshipped as can be seen in Revealed Mythologies and the Glorantha: Intro.
>The Kralori were overcome from within, with Darudism gone wrong. I
>suppose that the God Learners failed to corrupt or insert themselves in
>the Fonritian slavery hierarchy. Perhaps it was the early failure of the
>Six-legged Empire which saved Fonrit.
Let's see:
God Learners defeat Waertagi: 718 ST.
God Learners reach Kralorela: 719 ST.
Big Naval Battle on Suam Chow: 727 ST.
Emperor Yanoor flees onwards: 768 ST.
God Learners in Umathela: 654 ST at the latest.
First largescale battles with Fonritans: 838-859 ST
Kolar expeditions into the Interior: 859-870 ST.
Kolar made a duchy: 870-889 ST.
Kolar annihilated: 901-919 ST.
The "early" failure is quite late and does not explain why the God Learner conflicts with the Fonritans ended in draws despite nearly two hundred years of contacts.
> > No. The core entities are the ancient deities of the Artmali
> > civilization that inhabited Fonrit in the old days.
>You leave me puzzled. Unless you are referring to Ompalam and Darleester
>the Noose as the "ancient deities of the Artmali civilization", I fail
>to find any prominent deities of noticable Artmali origin.
Revealed Mythologies:
"Instead [Garangordos] and his followers would use the quest to
liberate Ompalam from the shackles of Jraktral the Tap. They
would reimpose the benefits of civilization and enforce his rule
on the scattered Veldang."
Since Jraktal the Trap was stated as far back as Tales #8 (p7) to be conquered in Fonrit and the word "reimpose" all lead to the conclusions that the gods being rediscovered are native.
>Is the theist nature of the Artmali a fact, or an assumption?
The northern Artmali do worship Gods. In the Flight from Sharzu myth, the following is said:
"The Blue-skin masters worshipped the gods Afidisa, Tolat
and the three Sky Witches: Chermatam Enjata Mo and
Veldara. They forced our ancestors to adopt the theistic
worship of these deities and sacrifice to them, a thing they
had never done before."
Revealed Mythologies p44
>The Three Sky Witches are named and recognized from the Doraddic
>perspective, although the asterisked entities (Bijiif, Lorion) and Tolat
>and Annilla are taken from the Monomyth, i.e. from heavily theist
>influences.
Where do you think the God Learners got Tolat, Emilla and Orfeda from? The Gachi of Melib perhaps? And where did they get it? From the Zaranistangi. I don't see why these names are so suspect.
>And each of the Gargandites is detailed as presenting one of the
>(Doraddic) Witnesses, i.e. Pamalt and his Necklace.
There's thirteen members in the Necklace while the Gargandites has seventeen. IMO the two are analogues of one another rather than one being a misapplied version of the other.
> >>They managed to stand off the God Learners for long enough, but
> >>they failed to defend against the purer Doraddic magics of
> >>Kemparana, for instance.
>True. I was writing away from my sources and confused Kemparana with
>Seseko the Fire Lord.
What makes you think he wields purer Doraddic magics? He defeats Kalabar in 1136 and lives there while the Pure Doraddi arrive in Fonrit in 1202 and found the city of Katele. Although Seseko calls "heroes and armies from all across Pamaltela", this also includes the Umathelans, the Exigers, the Masloi and so on.
>Kalabar is in many ways the Pamaltelan parallel to Locsil, the Clanking
>City. It's influence on southern Fonrit may have been comparable to that
>of the Zistorites in Maniria - strong, but not pervasive.
If you think that the Kalabarites are God Learners, then they are too early. The city is founded in 679 ST which is before the God Learners really got started. I prefer to think of Kalabar as a native manifestation forces behind the Empires of the Imperial Age like Errinoru's Elf Empire, the Middle Sea Empire, the EWF and the Eastern Seas Empire.
--Peter Metcalfe
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End of Glorantha Digest
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