Re: Fonritian Magic

From: Joerg Baumgartner <jorganos_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:02:12 +0200


Peter Metcalfe:
>I'm ignoring some of Joerg's latest arguments because the core
>concept (that Fonritan religion is misapplied sacrifice to spirits)
>is simply worth the continued public debate.

While I dislike being ignored, I too think that there are useful things to be learned from this debate.

>>In Fonrit, all this transcendant aspect appears to be channeled via the
>>Gargandites.

>No, it doesn't. Ompalam is also worshipped as can be seen in
>Revealed Mythologies and the Glorantha: Intro.

Yes, collaterally taking a significant portion, much like Yelm is in Dara Happa, or Wakboth in Storm Bull rites.

>>The Kralori were overcome from within, with Darudism gone wrong. I suppose
>>that the God Learners failed to corrupt or insert themselves in the
>>Fonritian slavery hierarchy. Perhaps it was the early failure of the
>>Six-legged Empire which saved Fonrit.

>Let's see:

>God Learners defeat Waertagi: 718 ST.
>God Learners reach Kralorela: 719 ST.
>Big Naval Battle on Suam Chow: 727 ST.
>Emperor Yanoor flees onwards: 768 ST.

>God Learners in Umathela: 654 ST at the latest.
>First largescale battles with Fonritans: 838-859 ST
>Kolar expeditions into the Interior: 859-870 ST.
>Kolar made a duchy: 870-889 ST.
>Kolar annihilated: 901-919 ST.

>The "early" failure is quite late and does not explain why the God
>Learner conflicts with the Fonritans ended in draws despite
>nearly two hundred years of contacts.

The God Learner conflicts with the Heortlings were a prolonged draw, too.

>>>No. The core entities are the ancient deities of the Artmali
>>>civilization that inhabited Fonrit in the old days.

>>You leave me puzzled. Unless you are referring to Ompalam and Darleester
>>the Noose as the "ancient deities of the Artmali civilization", I fail to
>>find any prominent deities of noticable Artmali origin.

>Revealed Mythologies:

>"Instead [Garangordos] and his followers would use the quest to
>liberate Ompalam from the shackles of Jraktral the Tap. They
>would reimpose the benefits of civilization and enforce his rule
>on the scattered Veldang."

>Since Jraktal the Trap was stated as far back as Tales #8 (p7) to be
>conquered in Fonrit and the word "reimpose" all lead to the conclusions
>that the gods being rediscovered are native.

They reimpose the Artmali Age level of civilization like it had been achieved in (Agimori) Tishamto.

I notice the specific absence of any Artmali deities named elsewhere in the Pamaltela/Animist section of RM in modern Fonrit.

>>Is the theist nature of the Artmali a fact, or an assumption?

>The northern Artmali do worship Gods. In the Flight from Sharzu
>myth, the following is said:

>"The Blue-skin masters worshipped the gods Afidisa, Tolat
>and the three Sky Witches: Chermata, Enjata Mo and
>Veldara. They forced our ancestors to adopt the theistic
>worship of these deities and sacrifice to them, a thing they
>had never done before."
> Revealed Mythologies p44

These Blue-Skin masters were from Kungatu, and had come by way of Zamokil. The Blue-Skins of Fonrit probably entered via Mondator, and their fleets may have sailed the extensions of the Churkenos Sea along with the Helerians. Who were the Banthites anyway?

Besides, the entire Outrigger mythical sequence needs some inspection. I'll post a URL for a thesis of mine - comparing the various official sources on Thinobutu - soon.

After Peters suggestion of the sedentary Ia Rawthi being theists - which hasn't really been conclusive - I reread and catalogued the Animist section to make sense of the Artmali Period and the exploits of blue-skinned peoples. I found a couple of discrepancies in the Outrigger Peoples' myths I tried to resolve. Basically, I found both an Artmali and an Antigod presence in Gendara/Genjera/Thinobutu/Sharzu, the Artmali during the early conflict, the Fozerantan/Shekdurban antigods (including the Gorgers) later.

I'm still trying to make sense of the Imperial Age events around the empire of Elamle-ata and the Artmali from Greg's very old notes in RM, those without any editorial work beyond a few feeble explanations.

>>The Three Sky Witches are named and recognized from the Doraddic
>>perspective, although the asterisked entities (Bijiif, Lorion) and Tolat
>>and Annilla are taken from the Monomyth, i.e. from heavily theist
>>influences.

>Where do you think the God Learners got Tolat, Emilla and Orfeda from? The
>Gachi of Melib perhaps?

Tolat most likely from them or the Trowjang women, yes, unless it was their own name for the Red Planet. Emilla and Orfeda don't figure greatly in the Prosopaedia or any other previous texts.

>And where did they get it? From the Zaranistangi.

Or from the celestial ancestors of their other neighbours.

>I don't see why these names are so suspect.

The Zaranistangi (just like the Helerians) aren't Artmali, even though they are blue-skinned.

The name Annilla is highly suspect when used instead of Serartamal or Veldara. IMO a clear editorial oversight. Lorion and Bijiif have the asterisk typical in Greg's unfinished works for names not yet created.

>>And each of the Gargandites is detailed as presenting one of the
>>(Doraddic) Witnesses, i.e. Pamalt and his Necklace.

>There's thirteen members in the Necklace while the Gargandites
>has seventeen.

Garangordos managed to add the four cardinals which are also included in the list of Esiti.

>IMO the two are analogues of one another rather
>than one being a misapplied version of the other.

This is an undecided issue much like the similarities between Lightbringers' Quest and Seven Mothers' Quest.

(And I wouldn't say misapplied to the Garangordos rite, only to what they produced as a result IMO.)

>>>>They managed to stand off the God Learners for long enough, but
>>>>they failed to defend against the purer Doraddic magics of
>>>>Kemparana, for instance.

>>True. I was writing away from my sources and confused Kemparana with
>>Seseko the Fire Lord.

>What makes you think he wields purer Doraddic magics?

Because it is hard not to be purer Doraddic than the Fonritians if you use any of the great Pamaltelan spirits (like Sikkanos).

>He defeats Kalabar in 1136 and lives there while the Pure Doraddi
>arrive in Fonrit in 1202 and found the city of Katele. Although
>Seseko calls "heroes and armies from all across Pamaltela",
>this also includes the Umathelans, the Exigers, the Masloi and
>so on.

Seseko summons Sikkanos. I don't know who exactly his allies were and how they distinguished themselves, but Seseko is using Doraddic magic.

>>Kalabar is in many ways the Pamaltelan parallel to Locsil, the Clanking
>>City. It's influence on southern Fonrit may have been comparable to that
>>of the Zistorites in Maniria - strong, but not pervasive.

>If you think that the Kalabarites are God Learners, then they are too
>early. The city is founded in 679 ST which is before the God Learners
>really got started.

Weren't you the one who said that in 654 the God Learners were active in Umathela? What made you change your mind?

>I prefer to think of Kalabar as a native manifestation
>forces behind the Empires of the Imperial Age like Errinoru's Elf Empire,
>the Middle Sea Empire, the EWF and the Eastern Seas Empire.

I find the circumstances suspicious - a cotery of sorcerers erects a stronghold practically overnight in the neighborhood of a territory which they are interested in. Maybe the sorcerers were pre-God Learner Umathelans, but I still find the Umathelans the most likely source of sorcerers during this time.



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