>>>Take the
>>>rain god. Water falls out of the sky; there it is, doing it right now.
>>>What more proof of the existence of a rain god could you possibly need?
>>>What other conceivable explanation could there be for rain falling out
>>>of the sky? Every time it rains you have your
>>>cast-iron-couldn't-possibly-be-doubted proof that there's a rain god.
>>>Not believing in the rain god would be like not believing in gravity.
>>
>>
>
>I shall point out, once again, that most ancient people did not have gods.
>They had a term for the type of mythological being, but they did not use it
>as a title when discussing, addressing or considering the phenomena. No
>rain god, but rain; no love goddess, just love. If you feel bravery,
>homicidal urge, a move to self defense, etc. then Ares is present. If you
>hear a rumbling in the sky, Thunderer is present. If you felt like you were
>part of your clan, then the clan spirit is present. Experience of these
>things, ESPECIALLY the things that do not have a material component except
>within the person, was proof of the deity.
>
Indeed so; when I say its like disbelieving in gravity, this is because
the rain god is inherent in the rain - you can't experience one without
the other. Or at least a number of cultures thought like this - I don't
know enough to say whether they all did.
>>>Heortling's ability to enter the God-world and to cast magic doesn't
>>>give them an epistemological edge, since its only proving something
>>>which is obviously true (much as Newton's laws didn't make people any
>>>more confident that gravity existed than they already were). Besides,
>>>there were plenty of people in the ancient world - heck, in the present
>>>world - who were pretty damn confident that they really had travelled to
>>>the God/Spirit/Whatever World, so I doubt that's much of a difference.
>>
>>
>
>Especially where people can recognize that the "gods" are not just
>oversized and oversexed humans, sometimes with funny heads.
>
Sure; gods need not be physical in anything like the sense that human
are, although I suspect most cultures at least thought they could
manifest in such forms.
The Christian God is a prime example of this, and, of course, there are
plenty of examples of Christian 'heroquests'.
>>>Specifically, I disagree because they've got proof. Rain
>>>falling, the sun rising, the shaman entering the spirit world, the
>>>spirit voices in the underground temple, that sense of oneness you get
>>>when you touch the divine... some of these things might not convince all
>>>of us today (although some of them do remain pretty convincing to most
>>>people)
>>
>>
>
>The archetypes are as living today and have the same kind of impact on many
>people. If we remember that feelings of desire, awe, fear, respect are all
>sources of spiritual insight then we can remember that we are spiritual
>beings. Just because those were "taken away" from the gods by science
>
There are many theistic scientists, both today and historically, so I'm
not sure I'd agree with characterisation. Philosophies such as
rationalism and (obviously) atheism are more the sort of thing that
'takes one away' from the gods, and while they may be associated with
science they aren't identical with it. Drawing it back to Glorantha, we
have the example of the Mostali who use reasonably scientific methods,
while still contacting the divine through Mostal. Now, admittedly Mostal
may not be the sort of spiritual entity humans could identify with, but
IMO he's something more than 21st century atheism is likely to accept,
and does give dwarves a spiritual context. The God Forgotten might be a
good example of a Gloranthan culture that really has abandoned its
spirituality, however.
-- Trotsky Gamer and Skeptic ------------------------------------------------------ Trotsky's RPG website: http://www.ttrotsky.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ --__--__--
Powered by hypermail